1
   

A socialist USA?

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 01:32 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship." - Alexander Tytler
Words of wisdom..how does democracy do real good without begging for re-election.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 01:49 pm
@Elmud,
Xris, union workers are probably the most consistent voting block for leftist politicians in the entire country. Are we going to get into semantic crap about how they're leftists with a rightist attitude? I'm a leftist myself, and I'll freely acknowledge that every pro-union bit of legislation since the time of Teddy Roosevelt has been a leftist initiative that involved regulations and money on the part of the federal government.

It turns out that in THIS economic crisis everyone is suffering, from executives down to the poor, so no one label gets a monopoly on it.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 02:13 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Xris, union workers are probably the most consistent voting block for leftist politicians in the entire country. Are we going to get into semantic crap about how they're leftists with a rightist attitude? I'm a leftist myself, and I'll freely acknowledge that every pro-union bit of legislation since the time of Teddy Roosevelt has been a leftist initiative that involved regulations and money on the part of the federal government.

It turns out that in THIS economic crisis everyone is suffering, from executives down to the poor, so no one label gets a monopoly on it.
They are not lefties they are opportunists. The unions need legal limits just like any large body that can have block voting power.Power corrupts and left or right the problem is not the views its those who pretend to use its power for the "workers" Im not unrealistic in how politics corrupts ever fine ideal but i maintain this bail out has not been caused by socialist politics nor is it driven by a socialist attitude.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 02:37 pm
@Elmud,
The Soviet Union was the great champion of labor unions, of course.

Look, everyone is an opportunist. To swing this issue into a left/right or a socialist/capitalist issue is ridiculous. This whole crisis is a failure of internal checks and balances in a capitalist system, and the bailout is an emergency measure. I don't think it's fair to call this a socialist intervention, it's nothing resembling it. But it's also not a right wing measure either, especially considering that right wing people hate it and left wing people love it.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 02:58 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
The Soviet Union was the great champion of labor unions, of course.

Look, everyone is an opportunist. To swing this issue into a left/right or a socialist/capitalist issue is ridiculous. This whole crisis is a failure of internal checks and balances in a capitalist system, and the bailout is an emergency measure. I don't think it's fair to call this a socialist intervention, it's nothing resembling it. But it's also not a right wing measure either, especially considering that right wing people hate it and left wing people love it.
Im left wing and i think its disastrous without the unions becoming reasonable and without it involving a creative push in its future production..I hope you dont think communist russia was anything like a socialist agenda..
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 03:14 pm
@Elmud,
I don't think the UAW was unreasonable in getting the tremendous salaries and benefits they have had compared with other laborers in other industries. You want an unreasonable labor union, look at the Major League Baseball player's association.

But you simply can't call this stimulus and bailout plan right wing either. It was a free market problem, and it is going to need a free market solution. The government's goal is to stimulate the free market so it can get itself out of debt. What the government definitely does NOT want is to own all of the debt out there by virtue of owning banks and crappy mortgages and vacant houses. But the government also doesn't want to just leave the economy untouched so that only the strong survive.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 03:30 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
I don't think the UAW was unreasonable in getting the tremendous salaries and benefits they have had compared with other laborers in other industries. You want an unreasonable labor union, look at the Major League Baseball player's association.

But you simply can't call this stimulus and bailout plan right wing either. It was a free market problem, and it is going to need a free market solution. The government's goal is to stimulate the free market so it can get itself out of debt. What the government definitely does NOT want is to own all of the debt out there by virtue of owning banks and crappy mortgages and vacant houses. But the government also doesn't want to just leave the economy untouched so that only the strong survive.


I would just like to point out that strong is a relative term and in a crumbling economy of market correction, you may find that those who are strong are the ones you would be rooting for in more happy-go-lucky times.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 03:52 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
I'm still trying to understand the tenor of this conversation; as if somehow socialism was bad and capitalilsm was good. This isn't just here, either. News Analysts (which, I believe is a term which carries the correct root-word) are all a buzz lately about "socialistic overtones", and "Are we delving into socialism?!" <insert sound of a falling Bart Simpson here>. To this hysteria, I should like to contribute the following:
[INDENT]You'll never find a system of ecomonics that's 'pure'; all will have elements of other - seemingly opposite - economic ideologies. This is also true of the forms of government (which, together, form the bedfellows). It is only the product of two-dimentional thinking that polarizes into absolutes.

We've "socialized" an awful lot; look to each instance of regulation, zoning, with-a-purpose Tax Laws and one can readily point and scream just about anywhere in the city square, "Look! Socialist! It's a Socialist!"

I've seen and heard many considered opinions that one of the very reasons the U.S. is in its current economic crisis was the lack of oversight; that the government had a responsibility to ensure the viability of the means of production and wealth through regulatory guidance. "Look! It's a capitalist! a capitalist!". No matter where you sit on this fence-of-terminology, its something to ponder.
[/INDENT]Using neutral economic ideologies in a steriotypical manner, as if one is the embodiment of evil - the other 'all things good' - is just silly. So I suppose, were I to also answer the OP, mine would be: "Yea, maybe. So?"

Thanks
0 Replies
 
LWSleeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 04:20 pm
@Aedes,
The US has obviously always had some degree of socialistic programs and services. We may turn more towards it since we have just elected a left-leaning administration. I think an important question is if there's to be more, what exactly should be socialized?

A perspective I like is that presented by Henry Hazlitt in his modern classic "Economics in One Lesson." He sums up his one lesson as follows: "The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of an act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups."

i like what he says . . . to a point. As Aedes points out, everybody is an opportunist. People sharing common interests form groups intent on influencing policy to help their personal objectives, and whoever influences most decides policy. We are also short-sighted, tending to fix problems we could have saw coming but didn't; then when we do attempt fix them it is in reactive mode and so seldom a long-term fix.

But I think Hazlitt missed another factor needed for the "art of economics."

First, I don't see how, when considering a system for a single country, economics can be separated from human psychology, and of course social principles. So really the economic principles for a single government need to be psychosocioeconomic.

One of the most powerful principles ever discovered for business management, for example, was that since business is run by people, management must include what helps human psychology thrive. The cost of underproducing, unhappy, even sabotaging employees can sink a business.

Isn't running a country so it is financially and socially productive/effective a management issue? If so, then Maslow's classic model of a hierarchy of needs might apply to creating psychosocioeconomic policies.

The model by Maslow states that humans are more likely to "self actualize" (basically, maximize their creative, beneficial and productive output) when more basic needs are met. From this link . . . Abraham Maslow . . . you can see not everybody agreed with Maslow, but few would deny that organizational effectiveness improves when the work environment cares for and fosters the more basic levels of the hierarchy of needs.

http://www.shkaminski.com/Classes/images/Maslow.gif

How would this apply to the psychosocioeconomic system? If you look at the pyramid, you can see government already attempts some degree of socialistic assistance for the middle three areas: safety, belongingness, and esteem (some admistrations more than others).

But physiological needs are still mainly in the market system. If you want a home, health care, food, education (which you need to acquire the other stuff in the first place) or legal assistance (which you may need to preserve the other stuff), people who own those products and services are making profit; sometimes, the more it is needed, the more money is being made off of it.

Those people who can't afford to meet basic need end up costing our psychosocioeconomic system, both in direct costs and opportunity costs. Some people, for example, who can't get what they need steal it, we have to pay for police, insurance, prisons, medical care from being injured, etc., plus they never reach the point of self-actualizing and so contributing to the country's wealth.

If the hierarchy of needs hold true for psychosocioeconomic principles, then some degree of socializing or subsidizing basic survival needs would create a more self-actualizing citizenry.

Summing up my suggestion, why not take the minimum survival stuff out of the capitalistic system (or at least regulate or subsidize, say, food, housing, education) and leave free market capitalism for all the rest of goods and services.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 04:32 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Words of wisdom..how does democracy do real good without begging for re-election.


Limit the government in principle to certain activities. If a government has no authority to intefere via taxes/subsidies in the energy industry, e.g., it has nothing to offer in exchange for bribes, favors, etc. from that industry. See the U.S. Constitution for further information.

Khetil wrote:
I'm still trying to understand the tenor of this conversation; as if somehow socialism was bad and capitalilsm was good. This isn't just here, either. News Analysts (which, I believe is a term which carries the correct root-word) are all a buzz lately about "socialistic overtones", and "Are we delving into socialism?!" <insert sound of a falling Bart Simpson here>. To this hysteria, I should like to contribute the following:
[INDENT]You'll never find a system of ecomonics that's 'pure'; all will have elements of other - seemingly opposite - economic ideologies. This is also true of the forms of government (which, together, form the bedfellows). It is only the product of two-dimentional thinking that polarizes into absolutes.

We've "socialized" an awful lot; look to each instance of regulation, zoning, with-a-purpose Tax Laws and one can readily point and scream just about anywhere in the city square, "Look! Socialist! It's a Socialist!"

I've seen and heard many considered opinions that one of the very reasons the U.S. is in its current economic crisis was the lack of oversight; that the government had a responsibility to ensure the viability of the means of production and wealth through regulatory guidance. "Look! It's a capitalist! a capitalist!". No matter where you sit on this fence-of-terminology, its something to ponder.
[/INDENT]Using neutral economic ideologies in a steriotypical manner, as if one is the embodiment of evil - the other 'all things good' - is just silly. So I suppose, were I to also answer the OP, mine would be: "Yea, maybe. So?"


So your argument is that the U.S. is already socialist, so its just silly to make so much fuss in the newspapers about new socialist measures? Perhaps you should realize that the debate is not over, as Mr. Obama likes to say. For the failures of socialism, see The Current Crisis.

Ignoring the philosophical arguments, which cannot be reconciled, I challenge you to name a problem in the U.S. that socialist policy has solved, which was not also caused by socialist policy. Or, even better, explain to me how the current crisis is the product of 'naked capitlism' or some such FICTION.

You are damned frog in the bucket and you're about to get cooked...:nonooo:
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 04:50 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
So your argument is that the U.S. is already socialist, so its just silly to make so much fuss in the newspapers about new socialist measures? Perhaps you should realize that the debate is not over, as Mr. Obama likes to say. For the failures of socialism, see The Current Crisis.


Wow... feel strongly about this, do you? Smile

In any case; yes, I do think its silly to make such a fuss about something because it may or may not be "socialist". To do "X" may be a good idea, or bad one. I think we should judge the relative value of any idea, action or legislation on its likelyhood for benefit, not whether or not someone's going to label it "capitalist" or "socialist". That's all.

Thanks
avatar6v7
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 05:04 pm
@xris,
The problem with communism is the same problem that capitalism has- ownership. In a communist system the state owns and distributes resources- the individual, even the community, has no control of resources. In capitalistic systems capital, property- ownership in other words, is again taken away from the individual and the community- it is put in the hands of banks, hedge funds, shareholders- it is why we live in debt. We need to redistribute not resources, but the control of resources, and sources of income. It needs to be in the hands of villages, towns, households and indivduals not corporations, not massive states, not the wealthy few.
0 Replies
 
LWSleeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 06:29 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;49088 wrote:
Limit the government in principle to certain activities. If a government has no authority to intefere via taxes/subsidies in the energy industry, e.g., it has nothing to offer in exchange for bribes, favors, etc. from that industry. See the U.S. Constitution for further information.


That's been proven to work for all segments of society, long term?


BrightNoon;49088 wrote:
I challenge you to name a problem in the U.S. that socialist policy has solved, which was not also caused by socialist policy.


Name one problem solved once and for all by any means.


BrightNoon;49088 wrote:
Or, even better, explain to me how the current crisis is the product of 'naked capitlism' or some such FICTION.


Theory: Cut taxes, create an environment favoring investment; it will create jobs, everyone will have enough to get their needs met.

Reality: Low taxes also means schools suffer, roads, bridges etc. crumble, police lack funds, passports are impossible to get on time, veterans are neglected, and so on

Investors build businesses, stockholders want dividends; worker pay and benefits are minimized/eliminated to enrich stockholders, the amount "trickling" down is sucked out by stockholders, executives, new investment (which doesn't always produce).

Meanwhile, to keep money flowing in, consumers are fed marketing hype and extended tons of credit they shouldn't have; they are encouraged to consume, consume, consume. To consume at the rate needed to sustain the "top," consumers go into debt. Soon they are over their head, bankruptcies and foreclosures follow, spending stops, economy goes into a tailspin.

Solution: make sure the bottom is enriched enough to sustain a heathy market. Socialize or subsidize basic needs, leave the rest to the free market.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 06:45 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Wow... feel strongly about this, do you? Smile

In any case; yes, I do think its silly to make such a fuss about something because it may or may not be "socialist". To do "X" may be a good idea, or bad one. I think we should judge the relative value of any idea, action or legislation on its likelyhood for benefit, not whether or not someone's going to label it "capitalist" or "socialist". That's all.

Thanks


Wow. And that's why you're a socialist (and I'm not name calling BTW, just an accurate name for the ideology that's glaring at me through the screen). By definition, socialism is pragmatic. Socialists do what is assumed to be best for the greatest number. That is why socialism is antithetical to freedom (ignoring the rights of a few, for the benefit of the many), and why there is a very slippery slope. Taken to its logical conclusion, socialism/pragmatism/utilitarianism could justify anything, so long as the quantitative benefits (cheaper bread for 85% of the population e.g.) outweighed the costs (enslavement of 5% of the population and execution of a few dozen vocal dissenters e.g.). The entire debate is about whether or not government/society has a right to every problem, and whether the individual or the group has rights. And you might respond with the U.N. declaration of universal human rights...rights under a government/in a society which has the authority, based on precedent, of doing whatever is 'best' for the majority, are privilages, not rights.

And yes, I do feel VERY strongly about this. Why? Because I see a rather bleak, if not catastrophic, future before this country, and to some extent the world (though some parts are already pretty bleak), due to socialism. ...Or in any case, what has come in the guise of socialism, which you might call corperatocracy, neo-feudalism, state-capitalism, etc. It is certain, and I'd love to debate any of the specifics with anyone here anytime, that MOST, if not all, of the ills supposedly caused by 'capitalism run amok' are in fact the products of government intervention. Sometimes problems arose out of the natural incompetance of government, more often from the conscious indifference/corruption of the government, which has been bought and is being used a vehicle for private interests. "Well that dosen't sound like socialism," you say; the government could never have been such a vehicle had it not usurped so many powers, by which it can now manipulate everything!

Before I pop a blood vessel, let me stop and ask you a few quesstions to get the ball rolling on for a debate. These are three espcially important, central issue:

(1) Are you familiar with fractional reserve banking in general and the federal reserve system in particular, especially regarding its creation in 1913, and the reasons for its creation?

(2) Did you know that early advocates of Keynesian economics (before it was so called) were institutionalized in Europe as madmen? (...because what they were advocating was essentially a national pyramid scheme that could only end like all pyramid schemes)

(3) Do you understand how inflation works; how it is a redistribution of wealth, how much ordinary americans have suffered because of government overspending, and who their money went to via the 'inflation tax?'
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 08:15 pm
@Elmud,
The idea that socialism some how restricts freedom is ridiculous. It can in certain forms, try to argue that the American economic system promotes freedom compared to what a more socialist version would. Socialize health care. People are freed from the uncertainties that the current system promotes (e.g. loss of insurance, non-coverage, unaccounted expenses, deductibles, hassles with the insurance company). Nationalize banks and the people are freed from bankers sucking money off the top or making money disappear into theory land where things don't always go as planned.

Remember freedom of choice is not the only freedom, and often times it is the least necessary. Freedom from uncertainty can be far more valuable and important in life than having the freedom to choose who will screw you over. I would argue that the typical American would have a greater sense of freedom with real socialism than with the corporate capitalist system of today. Most people are little more than slaves to the system.
LWSleeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 08:17 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;49115 wrote:
Wow. And that's why you're a socialist (and I'm not name calling BTW, just an accurate name for the ideology that's glaring at me through the screen).


You are name-calling . . . implying his term "wow" is somehow a sign of his philosophy is not an argument, it is ridicule.


BrightNoon;49115 wrote:
By definition, socialism is pragmatic. Socialists do what is assumed to be best for the greatest number. That is why socialism is antithetical to freedom (ignoring the rights of a few, for the benefit of the many), and why there is a very slippery slope.


You are constructing a strawman. Who is talking about total socialism? However, take the extreme of no government, anarchy. Who benefits most by that "freedom?" The bully and the person with all the advantages.


BrightNoon;49115 wrote:
Taken to its logical conclusion, socialism/pragmatism/utilitarianism could justify anything, so long as the quantitative benefits (cheaper bread for 85% of the population e.g.) outweighed the costs (enslavement of 5% of the population and execution of a few dozen vocal dissenters e.g.). The entire debate is about whether or not government/society has a right to every problem, and whether the individual or the group has rights.'


It is your own paranoia you are fighting here, not anything anyone has said so far. Who has said a word about absolutism in any philosophy?


BrightNoon;49115 wrote:
And yes, I do feel VERY strongly about this. Why? Because I see a rather bleak, if not catastrophic, future before this country, and to some extent the world (though some parts are already pretty bleak), due to socialism.


If all you look at is what's wrong with one idea, of course all you will see is bleakness. You want to blame socialism for your extremist, narrow way of looking at things.

The idea of combining our resources to serve common needs is a concept to be considered apart from full-blown philosophies based on that simple principle. The same thing happens with "yin-yang" philosophy where extreme believers attempt to define everything under the sun on the basis of polarity. Does that mean understanding and taking advantage of polarity is to be rejected altogether because some use it to the extreme?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 08:20 pm
@LWSleeth,
LWSleeth wrote:

Theory: Cut taxes, create an environment favoring investment; it will create jobs, everyone will have enough to get their needs met.

Reality: Low taxes also means schools suffer, roads, bridges etc. crumble, police lack funds, passports are impossible to get on time, veterans are neglected, and so on


Cutting taxes does create jobs. The Bush tax cuts created jobs. However, cutting taxes without corresponding reduction in spending, as I would advocate, is absurd and cannot last. Consider that one of the reasons that the government does such a horrible job with the essential functions you mentioned above is because a majority of its time and energy (i.e. beaurocracy) are devoted to regulatory activities, and an even larger majorty of its funds are devoted to social programs, esp. Medicare, Medicaid, and SS.

Quote:
Investors build businesses, stockholders want dividends; worker pay and benefits are minimized/eliminated to enrich stockholders, the amount "trickling" down is sucked out by stockholders, executives, new investment (which doesn't always produce).


That does indeed happen sometimes. However, government intervention in the market via minimum wage laws, mandates re insurance and health care, regulation in every sphere and subsidies/tax incentives (to politically favored, not necessarily viable companies) 'fouls up the works,' so to speak. Prices and wages become functions of a decision in Washington, rather than economic realities. --> inefficiency.

Quote:
Meanwhile, to keep money flowing in, consumers are fed marketing hype and extended tons of credit they shouldn't have; they are encouraged to consume, consume, consume. To consume at the rate needed to sustain the "top," consumers go into debt. Soon they are over their head, bankruptcies and foreclosures follow, spending stops, economy goes into a tailspin.


Here's the one that makes me smile. Marketing is the not the source of our consumer society. Our economy is driven by consumption, and ergo by the transative property, currently teetering on the brink of oblivion, because of our monetary policy, or rather or entire monetary system, along with the prevailing school of economics: keynesian. Per K. theory, demand is the basis of an economy and the engine of growth. Therefore, whenever there is a downturn/recession, the government enacts policies that stimulate consumption. Each time this happens, that sector of the economy is strengthened at the expense of the other, productive sectors; hence the replacement of domestic manufacturing by imports, and also our ever increasingly debt, public and private. These 'business cycles' that supposedly require a keynesian solution (which really is just a postponement, a borrowing of future prosperity, a sort of of pyramid scheme) are not a natural phenomena. Yes, in any economy, there will be periods of decline along with periods of growth, but the ossilation is magnified and made more frequent by our monetary policy, which brings us to the Federal Reserve.

The Fed is the worst sort of reactionairy; it tries to identify slowing growth and responds with lower interest rates (more credit and money in the economy) which creates an artifical prosperity (a bubble, such as recently popped in domestic real estate, and is about to pop in commerical), which creates inflation, to which the Fed then responds by lowering interest rates. What has happened? No prosperity is created, only the illusion of prosperity, and two other constants: inflation and debt. Since the creation of the Fed, and especially since the final abandonement of the gold standard in 1971, there has been a perpetual debasement of the $US and a perpetual and exponentially increasing debt-load, private and public. This all equates to a weakening of the productive capacity of the U.S., a loss of competieiveness and efficiency, but most directly, a transfer of welath via inflation and debt. When the Fed creates new money, the existing currency is devalued proportionately...eventually. Whoever has the money first gets to use its full purchasing power to acquire real assets; by the time it reaches the ordinary consumer, inflation has caught up. The manjor banks and the government are the first to use the money.

As for debt; do you know that the Federal Reserve is a privately owned corperation, the shares for which were sold in 1913 to the largest private banks in the world and are non-transferable, but which yeild a garanteed 6% dividend from the Fed's earnings annually. And where do those eanring come from? Interest on the part of the national debt which the government owes to the Fed, amounting to tens of billions annually. You might think that this sound sfair, that this private bank (the Fed) should earn interest on the money it lent the government...here's the kicker; the Fed has no money, it has nothing but the sole legal authority to print money. So, to summarize, the government has delegated its constitutional authority to coin money to a private entity, which prints that money and then loans it to the government at interest! Of course, lending this new money (which these days isn't even printed, just entered into a computer) to the government isn't even the most lucrative operation for the banking cartel (the Fed); they loan out much more money to other banks and private corperations, manipulating the markets to their own advantage and earning interest on money they invented out of thin air! This is HUGE drain on the economy. The profit of the major corperations ans the concentration of wealth associated with that pale in comparison to this operation sanctioned by the government. Of course, the Fed and its private owners win either way; in the event of loan defaults in the private sector, they take owndership of real assets. For example, right now, under the guise of 'the buyer of last resort' the Fed is preparing to purchase all kinds of securities and finanical instruments with newly printed money: in other words, for nothing. In the 30s something similiar occured but with the government. When Roosevelt devalued the dollar relative gold with the intention of providing keynesian stimulus, he issued an executive order confiscating gold, which was then given to the Federal Reserve in return for its support in financing government spending. Since then, much of that gold has been sold. Yes, the gold in fort knox and the Fed bank of New York is not owned by the people fo the united states, but rather by the private central bank.

One more thing needs to be mentioned to give you idea of what I'm talking about, which should be understood as a whole. The Federal Reserve Act was introduced by Senator Nelson Aldrich in 1913 in response to public outrage over the market manipulation by the 'money trust,' a group of the most powerful bankers and industrialists, which was beleived to have caused the banking panic of 1907. Nelson did not write the bill though(Nelson, btw, was the godfather of Nelson Rockafellar, hence the name). The bill was written by a group of men who travelled to Jekyll Island, a private resort island off the coast of Georgia, on the Sen. private rail car a few years before. Thet cottage where these men met actually has a plaque commemorating the event, so it's no secret. However, at the time, it was very secret, because these men were: Frank Vanderlip, Henry Davison, Charles Norton, Benjamin Strong, and Paul Warburg, who respectively represented the National City Bank of New York, the J.P. Morgan Company, J.P. Morgan's First National Bank of New York, J.P. Morgan's Banker's Trust Company, and the European Kuhn, Loeb and Company; together, these men are conservatively estimated to have controlled at about one quarter of all the wealth in the world at that time.

Need I say more? We've been being looted for decades...not by free marketeers, but by a government sponsored cartel, supposedly working in the public interest and created to correct 'wild swings of capitalism,' which is has caused.

Quote:
Solution: make sure the bottom is enriched enough to sustain a heathy market. Socialize or subsidize basic needs, leave the rest to the free market.


Then the free market won't work, and we'll all be poor. That sort of plan does nothing but make people dependent; welfare-esque programs do not fight poverty, they institutionalize it. Moroever, we're broke...that day is done even if we wanted to prolong it.
0 Replies
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 08:23 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
The idea that socialism some how restricts freedom is ridiculous. It can in certain forms, try to argue that the American economic system promotes freedom compared to what a more socialist version would. Socialize health care. People are freed from the uncertainties that the current system promotes (e.g. loss of insurance, non-coverage, unaccounted expenses, deductibles, hassles with the insurance company). Nationalize banks and the people are freed from bankers sucking money off the top or making money disappear into theory land where things don't always go as planned.

Remember freedom of choice is not the only freedom, and often times it is the least necessary. Freedom from uncertainty can be far more valuable and important in life than having the freedom to choose who will screw you over. I would argue that the typical American would have a greater sense of freedom with real socialism than with the corporate capitalist system of today. Most people are little more than slaves to the system.


Agreed, but that system is not a capitalist one..not even close. Capitalism is the bogey man (imaginary) that the government constantly uses to increase the scope of its powers. "The market failed, we have to do something." No, 'you' have done quite enough...
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 08:33 pm
@LWSleeth,
LWSleeth wrote:
You are name-calling . . . implying his term "wow" is somehow a sign of his philosophy is not an argument, it is ridicule.




You are constructing a strawman. Who is talking about total socialism? However, take the extreme of no government, anarchy. Who benefits most by that "freedom?" The bully and the person with all the advantages.




It is your own paranoia you are fighting here, not anything anyone has said so far. Who has said a word about absolutism in any philosophy?




If all you look at is what's wrong with one idea, of course all you will see is bleakness. You want to blame socialism for your extremist, narrow way of looking at things.

The idea of combining our resources to serve common needs is a concept to be considered apart from full-blown philosophies based on that simple principle. The same thing happens with "yin-yang" philosophy where extreme believers attempt to define everything under the sun on the basis of polarity. Does that mean understanding and taking advantage of polarity is to be rejected altogether because some use it to the extreme?


No, I am not name calling. Socialism is the name of a political/economic ideology. I called Khetil a socialist, because he advocates a form of socialism. Very simple. Also, the 'Wow' was a sarcastic reference to the Wow he gave me earlier. Its seems to me that the above post of hyours does not address any specific points or make any logical arguments, or any arguments. It seems to me that you are the one making personal attacks. I WELCOME WITH OPEN ARMS any rational debate on this subject. As you see, I've made a long post in response to your earlier one. Why don't we start there, with some actual issue that is debatable, rather then waste time arguing about how my arguments are somehow unfair or personal attacks.
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Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 08:41 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Agreed, but that system is not a capitalist one..not even close. Capitalism is the bogey man (imaginary) that the government constantly uses to increase the scope of its powers. "The market failed, we have to do something." No, 'you' have done quite enough...


I realize that U.S. economy is about as capitalist as the Soviet Union was communist. I just think it is sad how little consideration we give our freedom. I think consumerism put the idea in many people's heads that freedom is choice. But freedom is also security from stupid sh!t. The markets failed because we let economist do math without going back and checking the work. I do feel bad about all of the people that were screwed by the system, but they all had the choice to stay out of the whole game that came crashing down. I find it funny that now they want the government to help them because they have it bad. In good times they want no government, in the bad times they go crying to the government for help.
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