Rise of the Militias

@memester,

That various groups resort to extreme violence, whether under the aegis of religion or politics, seems to indicate that there is a greater abandonment of the faith that intellectual discussion and and the use of reason in an open society will produce the desired result. It seems important to attempt to understand the origins and the causes of this rejection that seems to be increasing.

1 Reply

@memester,

This didn't even make it to the second page and it has already turned into a debate on the merits of global warming, and it is the last thing that needs to be littering the forum. Here is this complex issue that has massive amounts of scientific data waiting to be interpreted, and as the issue is here, the conversation turns into an unnecessary squabble over whether global warming is real or not. The problem: whether it is real or not does absolutely nothing to address what all this scientific data means, and how it all connects together.

But of course, that is the way that modern politics works. It is no surprise that there is a rise in militias when the political system turns people against each other with this with us or against us nonsense. People are getting fed up with how this political process can fracture communities.

But anyway, if this thread continues to debate this silly global warming hot air, I will close this thread because that charade has already been played out elsewhere on the forum.

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@xris,

xris;148220 wrote:

I have no intentions of being drawn into a meaningless debate, to satisfy your ego. I told you I dont support violence. We all have certain views but I hope I dont enter them blinkered and determined as you. Constant Links mean nothing, they have to be examined and determined for their honesty and bias. If you want an audience then take up preaching but i know your intentions and I wont be party to them..

the links are showing material direct from source and/or linking to mainstream news. Authorities have made arrests. It's a fit subject.
If you do not enjoy,
Do not deploy !

---------- Post added 04-04-2010 at 11:54 AM ----------

Theaetetus;148227 wrote:

This didn't even make it to the second page and it has already turned into a debate on the merits of global warming

Personally, I focused on militias, attempted to turn the dialgue toward militias. One poster remained determined on global warming well after, and then on ad hom. Let's be accurate. there are clear signs that I tended to draw the dialogue onto militias, not global warming per se.

Quote:

, and it is the last thing that needs to be littering the forum. Here is this complex issue that has massive amounts of scientific data waiting to be interpreted, and as the issue is here, the conversation turns into an unnecessary squabble over whether global warming is real or not. The problem: whether it is real or not does absolutely nothing to address what all this scientific data means, and how it all connects together.

quite correct.

Quote:

But of course, that is the way that modern politics works. It is no surprise that there is a rise in militias when the political system turns people against each other with this with us or against us nonsense. People are getting fed up with how this political process can fracture communities.

good on-topic comment. thank you

Quote:

But anyway, if this thread continues to debate this silly global warming hot air, I will close this thread because that charade has already been played out elsewhere on the forum.

Yes, I agree, in a way ( for all that my input matters) ; but not to closing the thread. I would argue that instead of closing the thread through attrition by one member, it would be more suitable to block posting priviledges on this thread, for anyone who persists about the GW problem itself, rather than on militias, and the inctements, or the violent acts, arrests, and so on... after this warning about GW argument. Noted that you saw fit to do absolutely NOTHING about the repeated ad hom commentary ( his remarks were really not about GW; they were about my motive and my intent, and the motives of others). Also noted that that you did NOTHING about the libel offered about me.

Quote:

...You carry on with your blatant propaganda but you may notice for the most part your ignored and treated as the stooge you are. I know that your one of many paid to spread disinformation and lies. Your single minded activity is obvious.

And here I thought that my most single-minded activity had been challenging Dawkins and his theories and explanations , up and down. Laughing

There is no logical reason to say that discussing the militia style incitement is even discussing GW per se. It's not necessary to discuss GW itself or GW politics per se, at all.

Further, you seem quite confused, Theaetetus.

There was no debate on whether or not global warming is real. Not a WORD. Eveyone here on the thread would seem on-board that at least about 3/4 of a degree C. happened in the last century of so. So you are WAAAY off base, you seem incoherent, incapable of drawing the distinctions you are trying to make ! Obviously. Smile

I repeat: not one word of argument went on as to if GW is real or not ! get a grip, pal.
in fact, as a reponse to that topic being improperly inserted as a claim against me in this thread, I already stated this, as a "given": that IPPC numbers on this are accepted as true for now.

Quote:

...something less than 1 degree global warming, per se.
Global Warming is apparent.

see ? you're way off base with your claims for intended closure, T.

In fact, if you take a peek at the climate politics thread, you'll find that I had posted about Greenpeace Army there, too, and yet my opponent noted that, posted, but then came HERE to insert those unwanted issues HERE, rather than debating those in the politics thread on AGW.

This is strictly supposed to be about the rise of these militias, ad hoc armies, and incitement to do unlawful acts against persons

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@memester,

memester;148191 wrote:

it takes more damn fuel to send anything across vast sretches of land...medicines, doctors, food, construction materials ...anything !
Those peoples are trying to survive and of course, trying to feather their nests, too.
The CO2 disaster screamers, though; which of them lives as thought they really believed that their grossly fat lifestyle , airliner and private jet caravans, are a crime against the children, choking the possiblility of a normal life out of one newborn ?
Why is that not one of these people display the kind of life they demand of others ?

It would seem illogical to damand what we won't accept, but everyone seems to imagine an ideal far enough removed that there is no danger of it... Still, if their goals seem impossible short term since we are all dependent upon a life style that is ultimately destructive of our environment then isn't the direction of a less destructive life style still a good one??? Everyone wants their own front porch looking at their front yards and a house full of babies and cars in the garage, and if we all demand it we must have more of it.... But look, there is still plenty of it to go around...It is just that the commonwealth has been privataized so the average man without means at once pays for the destruction of his environment through the mismanagment of government, and then loses the support of his own property... The common wealth is ours, and we have right to see it used in private hands as it would be in public hands, that is: In a fashion good in the eyes of the public and in a pure purpose... Those people who think because they buy something that it gives them the right to crap all over it are nuts...There is no right of propety that is not limited, and in fact, the concept has always been under revision...And It is past time to revisit the notion...

1 Reply

@Fido,

let's limit this to rise in militia style incitement to do unlawful acts upon persons.
just trying to protect the thread from closure.

edited out some error.

1 Reply

@jgweed,

jgweed;148223 wrote:

That various groups resort to extreme violence, whether under the aegis of religion or politics, seems to indicate that there is a greater abandonment of the faith that intellectual discussion and and the use of reason in an open society will produce the desired result. It seems important to attempt to understand the origins and the causes of this rejection that seems to be increasing.

People should not ever give up on making the moral argument, and understand that it is generally agreed that violence is immoral, as it certainly is in Western Culture.

Yet; some people believe there is an absolute right to justice, and that justice and a Just land may be a legacy we allow our children, and if we are not willing to struggle to have it then no one will have it, not now or later...There are a lot of things that people should make the fight for, but nothing they should fight over that should not be talked over...

The common mind is better than any individual mind, and people should share their thoughts and avoid the sharing of their frustrations and violence...Get angry, think about it, and talk about it...It may be possible that many others feel as you do...

But no amount of numbers justify violence because what one may not do no number can justly do...Now; The value of numbers is that they may do without violence, say what is law, and also say what is just for one, and for all... So people should talk, and with every fibre of their being they should make the moral argument...Not all change is violence, and violence is most threatened to avoid change... We know change is a natural fact of life, and when social forms resist change to a high degree they make certain of violence... Social forms have a life span uncertain but a certain fate... Instead of a death sentence all social forms should be given a retirement age...Make each new generation refashion each form to suit its needs, then the question of violence would not emerge...

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@memester,

memester;148236 wrote:

let's limit this to rise in militia style incitement to do unlawful acts upon persons.
Added:
My apologies, jgweed, I did not note that you are an administrator.

Now, to reply fully to your post mentioning environment as an issue would seem to leave me in a bind with T.
so I'll take a look and see what' is safe.

[CENTER]In my country the Netherlands cardrivers are also organised. We do not call it a militia but they recently managed to change plans for taxiation on driving during rush-hours. They could do so by sheer numbers of cardrivers fearing to pay to solve cardrivers problems.

I live 500 m. from a motorway. I have to clean double because of all the exhaust. No to mention my health.

Cardriving is not a God-s-given right. I do not support violance but reason doesn't seem to work. Economy stupids ! Everybody a car is not a future we can endure. INvesting on public transport could help. Live closer to work.

Sometime you have to act. When I get run over on a crossing I hit the car and try to damage it, sometime I use my shopping-cart to make an impression on the hood.

Less cars, more people !

Pepijn Sweep
Magister X:bigsmile:X
[/CENTER]

1 Reply

@Pepijn Sweep,

Pepijn Sweep;148238 wrote:

[CENTER]In my country the Netherlands cardrivers are also organised. We do not call it a militia but they recently managed to change plans for taxiation on driving during rush-hours. They could do so by sheer numbers of cardrivers fearing to pay to solve cardrivers problems.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]I live 500 m. from a motorway. I have to clean double because of all the exhaust. No to mention my health.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Cardriving is not a God-s-given right. I do not support violance but reason doesn't seem to work. Economy stupids ! Everybody a car is not a future we can endure. INvesting on public transport could help. Live closer to work.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Sometime you have to act. When I get run over on a crossing I hit the car and try to damage it, sometime I use my shopping-cart to make an impression on the hood.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Less cars, more people ![/CENTER]

[CENTER]Pepijn Sweep
Magister X:bigsmile:X[/CENTER]

You'd not appreciate our former Attorney General, Michael Bryant. He was very interested in bringing in legislation about road rage and so on. Fled the scene

YouTube - Witnesses to killing of Darcy Allan Sheppard By Michael Bryant

it could well be that in a moment, one can change viewpoints drastically. As you say, people feel entitled to drive, and to not be kept waiting.

1 Reply

@memester,

Unfortunately, we cannot just limit certain members to be blocked from the conversation because they want to turn this into a global warming debate.

Hell, I saw this thread and I thought, it is about f##king time. We need more militias in the U.S. for the worst case scenario which seems to be approaching. All of these black and white dividing issues need to go as a focus for politics, and in their place, we need dialogues that look towards solutions based on evidence rather than conviction. Militias can only help to keep the government more honest and on the side of the people themselves rather than their employers.

1 Reply

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;148444 wrote:

Unfortunately, we cannot just limit certain members to be blocked from the conversation because they want to turn this into a global warming debate.

Hell, I saw this thread and I thought, it is about f##king time. We need more militias in the U.S. for the worst case scenario which seems to be approaching. All of these black and white dividing issues need to go as a focus for politics, and in their place, we need dialogues that look towards solutions based on evidence rather than conviction. Militias can only help to keep the government more honest and on the side of the people themselves rather than their employers.

Most of the malitias we have had todate have been formed around reactionary ideas...Sure, they want to protect their property, but what about the vast numbers of dispossessed in this country??? It the average person they acting through government that they want to stop...They have no problem with the rich who have taken every ones rights and property, so, to me the situation mirrors Germany... Bismark represented the reactionary Junkers, but at one time or another he used every political group....But he fed the reactionary press and really gave power to his own class, leaving out the working and middle classes that could have carried ?Germany forward...His legacy was WWI, and, as a group, it was the industrialist, the Junkers, and the reactionaries who had been supported for years by Bismark who helped Hitler to power...
It is the same thing here... Just as with Bismark who attacked the Liberals and Socialists at every opportunity, our government down to the lowest levels has attacked socialism, and now is attacked as socialist because some measure of social medicine has been forced on them by our general poverty...At the same time it is the Churches as bastians of reaction which have been fed simply because they have not been taxed...Nor has property been taxed to make it productive...Labor has been bled and dispossessed with taxes, but as wages have been cut, and workers have been replaced by robots they can no longer support the government or all those the government would feed or jail... The frustration is general, but look who has the guns...It is only those with a little fearing justly that they will lose all who hate the government...They are not democratic, but reactionary...They are not social, but violent... They do not want to talk... They want to kill, and to justify killing...Most of us are unarmed, and ready for slaughter...We are not the problem..

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@memester,

memester;148301 wrote:

You'd not appreciate our former Attorney General, Michael Bryant. He was very interested in bringing in legislation about road rage and so on. Fled the scene

YouTube - Witnesses to killing of Darcy Allan Sheppard By Michael Bryant

it could well be that in a moment, one can change viewpoints drastically. As you say, people feel entitled to drive, and to not be kept waiting.

I will watch it again. We (dutch) had similar situation; a env.activist shot populair politician. Ballots were printed so we voted a dead man into second room. His Party mad it to Government. No leader though. Head of Party was gone.

Now we suffer under PM Balkenende. I wish Queen would stop seeing him informally. Once a Year on 3rd Tuesday september. Even at a crisis she doesn't have to consult former Prime Ministers, unless they became Minister of State.

I will study Constition better. It does start with Art.1 No Discrimination !
(est. Constitution 1984)

I am against the combination of religions and political systems. Political systems should garantee Freedom of Religion. There are degrees.

Do Is-lam destroy Thaj because Emperor also made artist depict M.?
Why Denmark ? This is our sense of discontent with the way Al Is-lam is developping. Rich rulers, bad education, civil rights a laugh.

Pepijn Sweep
persona

1 Reply

@Pepijn Sweep,

We know where you live
some are claiming that only peaceful means were advocated :Not-Impressed:

1 Reply

@memester,

memester;148831 wrote:

We know where you live
some are claiming that only peaceful means were advocated :Not-Impressed:

Means are always peacful when the people have the guns... When the people are unarmed, then it is peaceful or not as those with the guns say...

If you think of it, guns alone are not much of a defense... Numbers and guns are a pretty sure defense, but the government is so much into high tech weaponry, that if there were a move toward revolution the heads would be cut off so soon as they raised themselves above the masses...I think it is better to just resist...Tear down what is before trying to organize anything...Last of all pick up a gun, because they can paint you as everyones enemy no matter what your politics are...People, above all other things fear indiscriminant violence...

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