Arguments for and against the belief in God

@xris,

xris;126711 wrote:

But your approaching it from a different perspective. If you describe your god or god correctly these anomalies are answered. I cant disprove god ,no one can but we can dispute a description. My biggest problem is the idea that he can contemplate his creation, he his a conscious being. If he can, then his logic is not the same as ours, his ethics are bewildering , his beyond our comprehension.

From one of my Blogs

Alan McDougall Master of Wisdom: Why Is There Something And Not Nothing?

What anyone chooses to believe is his or her choice. I do not feel that it is my place to convince someone to believe in God. I do respect others and hope they will afford me the same respect in regards to my personal beliefs.

I do believe in god, but do so because of my own convictions, research and experiences your" I listen with interest other opinions and beliefs. I may not agree with them (But I often think what some of them say is inane nonsense), but I do enjoy listening to diverse ideas. I can't prove to anyone that God exists. Nor can I prove how the Universe was put together and the laws that govern it. My ideas of how it all came to be, where detailed in the previous chapters of this article. Nor can anyone prove to me god does not exist!

Science, mathematics, astrophysics etc, all have their place in my mind as an important part of our existence. Science does not have all the answers, yet some feel that it could or should. So please some one think of this, in the Bible God says, "Let there be Light".

Then think about the big bang theory that states that everything came into existence suddenly out of nothing, in a colossal explosion of light into darkness. Then the expansion of the universe started together with the creation of electrons and photons. And ultimately the Galaxies, Stars and the entire fundamental laws and cosmic radiation.

Anyway it goes something like that. I know that I do not have the knowledge or the time to research all the different religious writings throughout history and then compare what has been said with all the different scientific theories that have come along. However in this case God and Religion did come before Science and Technology

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan I can see certain events and occurrences that lead me to believe this life, this universe, is engineered. Im optimistic that life may have a deeper purpose than this mad sometimes horrific worldly existence. I have had experiences that have led me to believe our soul may survive our body. I'm not like your normal standard atheist, agnostic, who discounts spirituality or possibilities. I have concluded without being dogmatic that god, if he exists, is beyond our comprehension. I dont think you can even start to understand him or describe him. I then ask does he have to exist as we imagine , why does he have to exist at all? Tell me Alan why is he a necessity? If you turned up in a heaven after you died and god was not there, would you be disappointed? If you met Jesus and he turned out to be just a man, would he disappoint you?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;127425 wrote:

Alan I can see certain events and occurrences that lead me to believe this life, this universe, is engineered. Im optimistic that life may have a deeper purpose than this mad sometimes horrific worldly existence. I have had experiences that have led me to believe our soul may survive our body. I'm not like your normal standard atheist, agnostic, who discounts spirituality or possibilities. I have concluded without being dogmatic that god, if he exists, is beyond our comprehension. I dont think you can even start to understand him or describe him. I then ask does he have to exist as we imagine , why does he have to exist at all? Tell me Alan why is he a necessity? If you turned up in a heaven after you died and god was not there, would you be disappointed? If you met Jesus and he turned out to be just a man, would he disappoint you?

Yes I would be profoundly disappointed if Jesus was your average guy on the street.Nice post, like you I do not follow any religious dogma or doctrine, If I ever god really religious it would be the unique religion of Alan. I will keep it to myself , unless someone asked me to detail what I believe. I would say that I am a rational theist open to the ideas of others like you xris

God is necessary because only this concept can give some sort of an idea how EXISTENCE came to be, but all the religious piety and practices do not move me, indeed some like red robed priests puffing out huge loads of incense angers me. What would Jesus had thought when he saw a pope being lifted up on a pedestal and carried by slaves of their own making. Where is 'Blessed are the poor, "blessed are the meek" in this cacophony of silly nonsense

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;127784 wrote:

Yes I would be profoundly disappointed if Jesus was your average guy on the street.Nice post, like you I do not follow any religious dogma or doctrine, If I ever god really religious it would be the unique religion of Alan. I will keep it to myself , unless someone asked me to detail what I believe. I would say that I am a rational theist open to the ideas of others like you xris

God is necessary because only this concept can give some sort of an idea how EXISTENCE came to be, but all the religious piety and practices do not move me, indeed some like red robed priests puffing out huge loads of incense angers me. What would Jesus had thought when he saw a pope being lifted up on a pedestal and carried by slaves of their own making. Where is 'Blessed are the poor, "blessed are the meek" in this cacophony of silly nonsense

Jesus had message and the message is always more important than the messenger. Has he got to be divine for me to appreciate his message? This is when I find religion divisive it divides us instead of uniting us in listening to his message. Why do I have to believe in god to worship the man called Jesus? If I cant find god here why should he make himself known to me in heaven, its here I need his certainty, not in heaven. Your friend Xris..

1 Reply

@Jebediah,

Jebediah;121024 wrote:

Men from Samoa are 56 times more likely than the average American to go into the NFL, partly because of their faith.

...since we are discussing arguments for the belief in god, not the existence of god. William James's argument is a decent one that I think justifies many people, I'm not sure about the leap of faith part though.

Research in the field of cognitive science suggests that "religion, especially god beliefs, has emerged as an adaptation designed to facilitate intragroup cooperation." "One explanation for how religion fosters cooperation is that belief in spirits or all-seeing gods, as found in larger populations, effectively blocks defection by triggering the feeling that one is being watched and subsequently rewarded for cooperative behavior and punished for cheating [1,17,21]. Thus, not only will human cooperation be promoted if people believe in supernatural punishment for moral transgressions, but the fear of such punishment is an adaptation favored by natural selection [2]."

(The entire article can be found by link from:
Trends in Cognitive Sciences - The origins of religion : evolved adaptation or by-product? )

Some people think that a phenomenon that has spiritual meaning loses that meaning when a "scientific explanation" is found. I am not one of those. I agree that Christ brought a profound message about how we should live and what would be needed from us to create "The Kingdom of God" here on earth. The divisiveness of the institutions that have been created in His name is caused, IMHO, by the desire of people to have power over other people: to tell them how to live, and receive "fealty" from them. Although I probably am sounding repetitive by now, you find, if you investigate it with an open mind, that the teaching of Baha'u'llah is suited to this present age. In His teaching, the "group" wherein cooperation is strengthened by religion is all of humanity.

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@xris,

xris;120984 wrote:

The first thing I must ask is what god? secondly, if there was any real evidence for a god the question would not be necessary.

Alan everything comes down to personal experience and personal faith, everything else is hot air. I can see possibilities but not certainties. The list for and against are points of view, they are not adequate reasons.

Interesting point. But would this apply to an argument about whether aliens have visited planet Earth? What if a minority perceived evidence that was not available to the majority?

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 11:09 PM ----------

xris;127811 wrote:

Jesus had message and the message is always more important than the messenger. Has he got to be divine for me to appreciate his message?

I agree. For me he is not divine. He's no more real than Hamlet. Both are characters in great books. Jesus is one of the most fascinating literary characters I've ever encountered. He also functions as a symbol.

1 Reply

@Reconstructo,

If they could give evidence that they had alien encounters, I would accept it. In fact I believe certain people honestly believe they have. There is more logic in aliens than any benevolent god. I find it strange that the faithful can find the idea of aliens almost comical but can maintain their belief in an invisible god.

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@xris,

xris;127811 wrote:

Jesus had message and the message is always more important than the messenger. Has he got to be divine for me to appreciate his message? This is when I find religion divisive it divides us instead of uniting us in listening to his message. Why do I have to believe in god to worship the man called Jesus? If I cant find god here why should he make himself known to me in heaven, its here I need his certainty, not in heaven. Your friend Xris..

Maybe because Jesus spoke so much about his heavenly Father of love, peace and mercy. Jesus never referred to God as Jehovah of YAHWEH those might be pagan gods of wrath for all i know, Read numbers chapter 31 and you will read that YAHWEH was nothing like the beautiful character of Jesus

SORRY ABOUT ALL THE KEYSTROKE ERRORS IN PREVIOUS POSTS OF MINE,
I am a poor typist!

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;128938 wrote:

Maybe because Jesus spoke so much about his heavenly Father of love, peace and mercy. Jesus never referred to God as Jehovah of YAHWEH those might be pagan gods of wrath for all i know, Read numbers chapter 31 and you will read that YAHWEH was nothing like the beautiful character of Jesus

SORRY ABOUT ALL THE KEYSTROKE ERRORS IN PREVIOUS POSTS OF MINE,
I am a poor typist!

If thats the case your not sitting on my knee Alan. I don't try and look for Christ Alan Jesus and his message is sufficient.

I have read that jehovah is one of the alien gods who manipulated man and had jealous nature. The logic of making god a alien makes much more sense but I dont tell everyone this , they may think I'm crazy.:bigsmile:

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;128945 wrote:

If thats the case your not sitting on my knee Alan. I don't try and look for Christ Alan Jesus and his message is sufficient.

I have read that jehovah is one of the alien gods who manipulated man and had jealous nature. The logic of making god a alien makes much more sense but I dont tell everyone this , they may think I'm crazy.:bigsmile:

Xris I thought I should repost my comments on the wrathful god of the Old Testament to contrast him with the god of Jesus

Numbers Chapture 31?

I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.

This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!

1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.

2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.

3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.

In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger

4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.

So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the "little boys". In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying." Kill all the woman" except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.

There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman's age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.

5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?

6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007

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@Alan McDougall,

Stop believing and find out for yourself if there is a God. Start by looking inside yourself and explore everything there until you find the answer.

Hint. God is literally right behind your consciousness.

4 Replies

@awareness,

awareness;138418 wrote:

Stop believing and find out for yourself if there is a God. Start by looking inside yourself and explore everything there until you find the answer.

Hint. God is literally right behind your consciousness.

I think you're incorrect. Or, alternatively, not correct. Or, not right. Or, what you say is false.

1 Reply

@awareness,

awareness;138418 wrote:

Stop believing and find out for yourself if there is a God. Start by looking inside yourself and explore everything there until you find the answer.

Hint. God is literally right behind your consciousness.

I must say I agree with your statement

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@awareness,

awareness;138418 wrote:

Stop believing and find out for yourself if there is a God. Start by looking inside yourself and explore everything there until you find the answer.

Hint. God is literally right behind your consciousness.

What you say reminds me of this passage from "The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah":

O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

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@awareness,

awareness;138418 wrote:

Stop believing and find out for yourself if there is a God. Start by looking inside yourself and explore everything there until you find the answer.

Hint. God is literally right behind your consciousness.

100% gibberish!

Why do you believe there is an answer?
Why do you believe that the answer is inside yourself?
Where is right behind your consciousness?

"Hint. God is literally right behind your consciousness."

How can you possibly know these things?

There are no truths about God at all.

Please show any confirmed truth about your god.

If there is no confirmed truth about your god, then we have proof that your god does not exist.

2 Replies

@Owen phil,

Its necessary to sustain your god by logic not inane words of comfort. God is not that easy to find, if he depended on looking then he would have been apparent many centuries ago.

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 04:13 PM ----------

1CellOfMany;139555 wrote:

What you say reminds me of this passage from "The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah":

O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

When are you going to realise that ancient poetic words are not relevant unless they hold words of wisdom. A couple of thees or seekests are not enlightening. You need substance.

1 Reply

@xris,

Personally I think God limits personal development. And that's not a problem exclusive to God. We grow by making choices and holding ourselves accountable. When you hold the word of God to be absolute and commanding then you're limiting your own decisions and your own rationale. Instead of not killing because God has said it's wrong, come up with a real reason for yourself. Don't be a good person because you fear the wrath of God, be a good person because you've come to understand what it means to be a good person and why it is itself a good thing. These are all value judgments that shouldn't be left to an arbitrary power.

That being said, belief in God, and religion in general has several positive effects that shouldn't be overlooked. But I think the best world we could possibly have would be devoid of a belief in God.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Belief in god does not presuppose a religious belief
If I read the bible it doesn't mean I'm a christian, just that I am willing to seek wisdom. The bible is as good a source as any, lots of smart guys wrote things down in there.
Maybe God did create us in his own image.
The image of God?
That of a creative inteligence seems apparent
I can't deny that image in any humans I've seen

I may not always spot the lie, but I generally know the truth when I see it.

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@Rwa001,

Rwa001;139829 wrote:

Personally I think God limits personal development. And that's not a problem exclusive to God. We grow by making choices and holding ourselves accountable. When you hold the word of God to be absolute and commanding then you're limiting your own decisions and your own rationale. Instead of not killing because God has said it's wrong, come up with a real reason for yourself. Don't be a good person because you fear the wrath of God, be a good person because you've come to understand what it means to be a good person and why it is itself a good thing. These are all value judgments that shouldn't be left to an arbitrary power.

That being said, belief in God, and religion in general has several positive effects that shouldn't be overlooked. But I think the best world we could possibly have would be devoid of a belief in God.

Remember God has given each of us a free will without any reservation. You could take a gun and kill me and god will not intervene. If he did intervene, just for me, he being totally fair and just must do the same for everyone else, don't you think ?

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

GOD is a human creation for unknown things. It helps a weak human who do not have much energy to think. It is necessary in one context , another contex it can be evil.

A knife with a cook use for cutting vegetables but same knife with killer takes a life.

It all depends how the tool is used.

If everyone is a thinker , there is no need for GOD.

God is not really a GOD is more of the fill the holes answer in human brain. Just so that humans do not waste infinite energy in unknown stuff and start to live.

Humans yak around all day and stopped living.

Live for the body not for the belief.

0 Replies

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