Arguments for and against the belief in God

@Zetherin,

[QUOTE=Zetherin;121073]If you're going to ask for evidence for something, you should clarify what it is you're asking evidence for. And you should try to clarify what you're trying to prove (even if only to yourself), if you're trying to prove something. Wouldn't you first think, "I am trying to prove X" before trying to prove X? If you didn't have something in mind, what is it you're trying to prove?[/QUOTE]I didn't mean that I wanted to know the entirely of what he said meant; I had only wanted to know if by chance he meant "which God" when he said "what God." I have my answer (I think).

[QUOTE]There are many different notions of God. I'd suggest reading the article and then doing some theology research.[/QUOTE]Yes, people have different notions of God, but that doesn't imply that there is another God for every different notion. Why send me away to do research? All I wanted to do was make sure I understood what you meant. I wanted to make sure you weren't thinking God could be defined, as opposed to the term, that is.

1 Reply

@fast,

Its not a silly or trick question, I can assure you. I have been down this road, many times and as soon as we give an opposing idea of why he might not exist, he ,it, changes, it morphs into another god. We end up chasing shadows. I'm quite prepared to say this god is incapable of comprehension or is not defined by man. If he is just a blank canvas , that would suffice. Give him an agnostic appearance.

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

fast wrote:

I didn't mean that I wanted to know the entirely of what he said meant; I had only wanted to know if by chance he meant "which God" when he said "what God." I have my answer (I think).

It meant the same thing to him, or at least it does to me. "What God are we speaking about" and "Which God are we speaking about" can easily be interpreted the same. And, I think in this case it did.

Note: I did see the distinction you made on the first page, but I am basically stating that that distinction doesn't apply here.

Quote:

Yes, people have different notions of God, but that doesn't imply that there is another God for every different notion.

It doesn't mean there's a God at all. All it means is that there are different notions of God. And, so, if we were to try to prove one of the notions true (that is, try to prove there is a God that exists which corresponds with said notion), it's wise to clarify with others which notion we're speaking about.

So, when xris saw, "Arguments for and against the belief in God", he probably found it a bit vague. What exactly are we providing arguments for or against?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

[QUOTE=Zetherin;121077]It doesn't mean there's a God at all. All it means is that there are different notions of God. And, so, if we were to try to prove one of the notions true (that is, try to prove there is a God that exists which corresponds with said notion), it's wise to clarify with others which notion we're speaking about. And then clarify that notion.

So, when xris saw, "Arguments for and against the belief in God", he probably found it a bit vague. What exactly are we providing arguments for or against?[/QUOTE]

I don't see why we need to know anyone's special notions of what God is no more than we need to know anyone's special notions of what cats are--to understand the clearly worded questions: Do cats exist? Does God exist? Two simple questions. I don't need notions. If I by chance don't know what cats are or what God is, I can consult a good dictionary for definitions; along with that and a little analysis, I can at least understand the clear (not vague) question, and I can do so without being privy to anyone's peculiar or particular notions.

1 Reply

@fast,

fast;121080 wrote:

If I by chance don't know what cats are or what God is, I can consult a good dictionary for definitions; along with that and a little analysis, I can at least understand the clear (not vague) question, and I can do so without being privy to anyone's peculiar or particular notions.

But there are many definitions of God, and many different notions of God. We must know which notion is in question, to answer the question "Does God exist?". As per the article I showed you, unless the word "God" is clarified, there can be no meaningful discussion. "God" certainly cannot be compared to a word like "cat". I'm telling you the word is what is ambiguous. If someone asks, "Do cats exists?", there is a general understanding. There is not such an understanding, culture to culture, religion to religion, if you ask "Does God exist?".

If you wish for a meaningful discussion, you should note which God you're referring to. For instance, the Abrahamic God, or a Hindu God. It just helps communication is all.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;121046 wrote:

The point of the debate is to try and determine if god exists by the evidence that is given. No one is prejudging the evidence by saying we have no evidence for any god, we need to determine what god we are debating. I could say Elvis was a god if my description of god fitted his appearance.

The first thing I must ask is what god? secondly, if there was any real evidence for a god the question would not be necessary.

So, what did this mean? It is obvious that the concept of God we are debating is the traditional one of Jews, Christians, and Muhammudens. Why is that an issue? The question is whether that concept has a referent. Your "puzzlement" is a red herring. No one is puzzled but you.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;121081 wrote:

It just helps communication is all.

Specificity can be a good thing, but I don't see that it's as necessary as being purported. At any rate, I think I'm just gonna back out of this for now.

0 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;121084 wrote:

The first thing I must ask is what god? secondly, if there was any real evidence for a god the question would not be necessary.

So, what did this mean? It is obvious that the concept of God we are debating is the traditional one of Jews, Christians, and Muhammudens. Why is that an issue? The question is whether that concept has a referent. Your "puzzlement" is a red herring. No one is puzzled but you.

Then your sadly mistaken. Ask Alan if he is referring to your notion? I for one wont debate the weather or any other changeable condition.
You give three gods each one different from the other and you propose to evaluate them as one, dont be silly.

2 Replies

@xris,

xris;121089 wrote:

Then your sadly mistaken. Ask Alan if he is referring to your notion? I for one wont debate the weather or any other changeable condition.
You give three gods each one different from the other and you propose to evaluate them as one, dont be silly.

Well, then, why not just settle on one, and debate that? Then we won't seem all that confused. What is sometimes called the god of Abraham, or the Jewish, Christian, Moslem god? The monotheistic god? What has the weather to do with it?

0 Replies

@xris,

xris;121089 wrote:

Then your sadly mistaken. Ask Alan if he is referring to your notion? I for one wont debate the weather or any other changeable condition.
You give three gods each one different from the other and you propose to evaluate them as one, dont be silly.

"Hi xris below is my personal perception of God and this entity is not one the gods of religion"

This is how I perceive God

There is no cause to my existence I simply "was", "were" and "AM" always forever, no beginning and no end existing forever in the glory of my light. Having no Cause I therefore was the Effect and Affect and shape on everything.

Back before anything was conceived , I was "INFINITE PURE "MIND" AND "THOUGHT"

There was no dark only light within my infinite domain , so I moved upon the great void of dark and shone upon the abysmal dark primordial light

Aware of infinite potential in vast unplowed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This" I am "That" I "Was" and I "Am" and I always will "Be" I am "Eternal

Awareness" I am "Every Where" I know "Everything" I am "Everywhen" I am the "Ever Existing One"

On the panorama of bleak blackness," I AM" "The Absolute", sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement, was the "Illuminating" the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant translucent iridescent glory was the first event of reason.

I formulated everything in the first thought of my Mind and knew the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals of' "one, and 'zero", "I made everything". I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my "First Cause". I am the "Immovable Rock" and the" Alpha point".

I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating
all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise.

I am the creator of the totality of all existence known by many names and titles but you should just all refer to me by the title that can never be confused by anyone. Call me The "Almighty One".

I am mystery and all mystery is mine to reveal when I open the book of minds

I AM the Ceaseless Creator of all things

I AM LIFE

2 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;121119 wrote:

"Hi xris below is my personal perception of God and this entity is not one the gods of religion"

This is how I perceive God

There is no cause to my existence I simply "was", "were" and "AM" always forever, no beginning and no end existing forever in the glory of my light. Having no Cause I therefore was the Effect and Affect and shape on everything.

Back before anything was conceived , I was "INFINITE PURE "MIND" AND "THOUGHT"

There was no dark only light within my infinite domain , so I moved upon the great void of dark and shone upon the abysmal dark primordial light

Aware of infinite potential in vast unplowed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This" I am "That" I "Was" and I "Am" and I always will "Be" I am "Eternal

Awareness" I am "Every Where" I know "Everything" I am "Everywhen" I am the "Ever Existing One"

On the panorama of bleak blackness," I AM" "The Absolute", sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement, was the "Illuminating" the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant translucent iridescent glory was the first event of reason.

I formulated everything in the first thought of my Mind and knew the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals of' "one, and 'zero", "I made everything". I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my "First Cause". I am the "Immovable Rock" and the" Alpha point".

I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating
all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise.

I am the creator of the totality of all existence known by many names and titles but you should just all refer to me by the title that can never be confused by anyone. Call me The "Almighty One".

I am mystery and all mystery is mine to reveal when I open the book of minds

I AM the Ceaseless Creator of all things

I AM LIFE

Sigh...................

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;121119 wrote:

"Hi xris below is my personal perception of God and this entity is not one the gods of religion"

This is how I perceive God

There is no cause to my existence I simply "was", "were" and "AM" always forever, no beginning and no end existing forever in the glory of my light. Having no Cause I therefore was the Effect and Affect and shape on everything.

Back before anything was conceived , I was "INFINITE PURE "MIND" AND "THOUGHT"

There was no dark only light within my infinite domain , so I moved upon the great void of dark and shone upon the abysmal dark primordial light

Aware of infinite potential in vast unplowed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This" I am "That" I "Was" and I "Am" and I always will "Be" I am "Eternal

Awareness" I am "Every Where" I know "Everything" I am "Everywhen" I am the "Ever Existing One"

On the panorama of bleak blackness," I AM" "The Absolute", sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement, was the "Illuminating" the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant translucent iridescent glory was the first event of reason.

I formulated everything in the first thought of my Mind and knew the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals of' "one, and 'zero", "I made everything". I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my "First Cause". I am the "Immovable Rock" and the" Alpha point".

I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating
all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise.

I am the creator of the totality of all existence known by many names and titles but you should just all refer to me by the title that can never be confused by anyone. Call me The "Almighty One".

I am mystery and all mystery is mine to reveal when I open the book of minds

I AM the Ceaseless Creator of all things

I AM LIFE

This sounds a lot like some 5-MeO-DMT experiences I've read about.

5-Methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1 Reply

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;121124 wrote:

This sounds a lot like some 5-MeO-DMT experiences I've read about.

5-Methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read about :bigsmile:

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;121126 wrote:

Read about :bigsmile:

On this particular one, yes. Strangely, this is the legal one.
A few others (quite a few years ago) I would indeed have to
express as "read" about.

0 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;121122 wrote:

Sigh...................

Gosh................................!!

Kennith I an glad you did not like my little god, that aside lets take firstly the argument for the existence of God, namely the cosmological argument below

The cosmological argument is an argument for the existence of a First Cause (or instead, an Uncaused cause) to the universe, and by extension is often used as an argument for the existence of an "unconditioned" or "supreme" being, usually then identified as God.

It is traditionally known as an argument from universal causation, an argument from first cause, the causal argument or the argument from existence. Whichever term is employed, there are three basic variants of the argument, each with subtle yet important distinctions: the arguments from causation, in esse and in fieri, and the argument from contingency.

The basic premise of all of these is that something caused the Universe to exist, and this First Cause must be God. It has been used by various theologians and philosophers over the centuries, from the ancient Greek Plato and Aristotle to the medieval St. Thomas Aquinas and the 20th century Frederick Copleston.
The argument</SPAN>

The cosmological argument could be stated as follows:

Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
Nothing finite and contingent can cause itself.
A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.

According to the argument, the existence of the Universe requires an explanation, and the creation of the Universe by a First Cause, generally assumed to be God, is that explanation.

In light of the Big Bang theory, a stylized version of argument has emerged (sometimes called the Kalam cosmological argument, the following form of which was set forth by William Lane Craig [5]):

Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
The Universe began to exist.
Therefore, the Universe had a cause.
Who or what has no cause, God? or what?

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan he is still not described. Is he capable of communication? is he aware of his creation and the consequences?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;121163 wrote:

Alan he is still not described. Is he capable of communication? is he aware of his creation and the consequences?

In my opinion God shows his attributes through great Masters like Jesus or Buddha

While we might not be able to comprehend his infinite mind, he has no difficulty in revealing his attributes through his creation, namely the universe

I would say he is both aware of our existence and he knows the consequences of giving we humans a free will with "no conditions or reservation"

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;121165 wrote:

In my opinion God shows his attributes through great Masters like Jesus or Buddha

While we might not be able to comprehend his infinite mind, he has no difficulty in revealing his attributes through his creation, namely the universe

I would say he is both aware of our existence and he knows the consequences of giving we humans a free will with "no conditions or reservation"

Sorry Alan with all the evil and hardship humanity has to suffer, I cant find a reason to believe in him. I cant see the purpose. Just look at those poor souls left alone under tons of concrete without hope, dying slowly. What could possible recompense them , what purpose does it serve?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;121166 wrote:

Sorry Alan with all the evil and hardship humanity has to suffer, I cant find a reason to believe in him. I cant see the purpose. Just look at those poor souls left alone under tons of concrete without hope, dying slowly. What could possible recompense them , what purpose does it serve?

XRIS this exactly my own dilemma why does God stand back and us to develop nuclear weapons like the atomic bomb?

I can equate this by saying I let my three year old grandson run around the house with a loaded machine gun.old you allow that to happen in your home "of course not" a three year old child is much to immature to carry a gun, but-no God allows his so called creation mankind to create a atom bomb. That defies my logic, but I still believe in God but not a white haired old granddaddy. God is capable of both good and evil

God is not benevolent neither is he malevolent he just "IS"

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;121168 wrote:

XRIS this exactly my own dilemma why does God stand back and us to develop nuclear weapons like the atomic bomb?

I can equate this by saying I let my three year old grandson run around the house with a loaded machine gun.old you allow that to happen in your home "of course not" a three year old child is much to immature to carry a gun, but-no God allows his so called creation mankind to create a atom bomb. That defies my logic, but I still believe in God but not a white haired old granddaddy. God is capable of both good and evil

God is not benevolent neither is he malevolent he just "IS"

He cant just be..he has to be logical, visible. If he is not visible then your attention is from desire not knowledge. Admit it Alan you are no different than me, in that you have no idea what or who he is. There well may be a spirit of love and understanding that lives within us and manifests itself in physical form but it aint a supreme being that cant be determined. Try imagining life and heaven without a supreme god, then everything may be so much clearer. It gives credence to jesus the man of love and the Buddha who helps our education. The spirit of goodness is balanced with that of evil and the kingdom of heaven on earth will only be attained by man.

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