Why does God permit evil????

@Pepijn Sweep,

All very nice , excellent musing and self serving understanding but none of you have answered the question that was originally posed.

A god who is good, all powerful , why does he permit evil?

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

We do not need a devil to be evil or a god to be good, we all are quite able to do those things, without the help of some Deity

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;122673 wrote:

We do not need a devil to be evil or a god to be good, we all are quite able to do those things, without the help of some Deity

I totally agree but that dismisses the idea that god exists. Its not the question Alan. If god exists?

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@xris,

xris;122676 wrote:

I totally agree but that dismisses the idea that god exists. Its not the question Alan. If god exists?

xris even if god exists we are free agents that he/she/it, allows us to be barbaric, or on the other hand maybe, a beautiful Creation that Man has the potential to be!

I remember a song that went something like this, "Everything is beautiful in its own way"

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;122688 wrote:

xris even if god exists we are free agents that he/she/it, allows us to be barbaric, or on the other hand maybe, a beautiful Creation that Man has the potential to be!

I remember a song that went something like this, "Everything is beautiful in its own way"

Certain things are beautiful Alan but the rape of a child can never be. If god allows it , and he does, then he is either not good or his not all powerful. I dont want us to be free, I would deny my existance let alone my freedom, if I could save one child's suffering. Whats more important ?

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@xris,

xris;122690 wrote:

Certain things are beautiful Alan but the rape of a child can never be. If god allows it , and he does, then he is either not good or his not all powerful. I dont want us to be free, I would deny my existance let alone my freedom, if I could save one child's suffering. Whats more important ?

xris Jesus felt the same as you do on the subject about the abusing children. He said "if you hurt a little one it would have better that you were never born. "Tie a millstone around your neck and throw yourself in the deepest part of the ocean"

There is a sin for which there is no forgiveness, in this life and in the next

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@xris,

xris;122672 wrote:

All very nice , excellent musing and self serving understanding but none of you have answered the question that was originally posed.

A god who is good, all powerful , why does he permit evil?

Since the question presupposes the existence of God, it only makes sense if we answer from a theist worldview: I will reply from a Baha'i inspired viewpoint, as that is what I have been studying for the last decade.

The reality of man is spiritual. That which is of real concern to God is our immortal souls. This world (or universe, if you will) is one stage of our spiritual journey. There may have been a stage before this one, but in the theistic view there are certainly stages after. In this world we are preparing ourselves for the next. To prepare for the next world, we need to develop spiritual virtues. A few examples of these spiritual virtues are Truthfulness, Compassion, Honor, Patience, Joyfulness, Generosity, and Excellence. (A more extensive list can be found at What are the Virtues?)

Actions inspired by virtue and in accordance with God's laws are good. Evil actions are the result of using our creativity and freedom to further goals that are purely animal in nature. That is, an animal, a chimp for example, since he does not have knowledge of good and evil, can follow his impulses for food, sex, dominant position, etc. in what ever way he will. Since he is constrained by lack of knowledge of good and evil, nothing that he does can be evil (i.e. "morally reprehensible"). A human, having knowledge of good and evil, needs to balance these animal impulses with spiritual virtues or he may act in ways that are morally reprehensible; ways that the chimp would find literally "unthinkable".

Therefore, God has given us free will and the knowledge of good and evil so that we can learn virtues, which he has given us in potential, but which we must develop by our own volition. (I suspect that in the next world it will be important that we have learned to master our own volition.)

The question then remains of why God allows suffering, and certainly your example of the suffering of a child who has been raped is a powerful one to consider. I don't have a good answer, but I thank you for pressing me to try to develop one! What I will say is: When we see or hear of examples of such suffering that has been caused by the evil actions of our fellow humans, most of us will experience outrage, sympathy, perhaps shame, and other such reactions. Because we see the suffering that evil actions cause, and feel sympathy for that suffering, we are motivated to avoid committing such actions ourselves.

If we examine our own behavior in the light of our reactions to the suffering caused by our own actions and the actions others, it should motivate us to choose to strive to develop our virtues: our tendency to commit only good actions that have a positive effect on others.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122650 wrote:

kennethamy surrendered the term Evil a few posts back. I think we're all in agreement that pain and suffering are not equatable or synonymous with Evil.

Yes. I really do not care about the word, "evil". And if you want to use it only for moral or intentional evil, be my guest. It does not really change the issue. The question still is, why does God, who is all good and all powerful allow suffering and pain?

"Words are the counters of wise men. They are the coin of fools" Thomas Hobbes.

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@1CellOfMany,

1CellOfMany;122707 wrote:

Since the question presupposes the existence of God, it only makes sense if we answer from a theist worldview: I will reply from a Baha'i inspired viewpoint, as that is what I have been studying for the last decade.

The reality of man is spiritual. That which is of real concern to God is our immortal souls. This world (or universe, if you will) is one stage of our spiritual journey. There may have been a stage before this one, but in the theistic view there are certainly stages after. In this world we are preparing ourselves for the next. To prepare for the next world, we need to develop spiritual virtues. A few examples of these spiritual virtues are Truthfulness, Compassion, Honor, Patience, Joyfulness, Generosity, and Excellence. (A more extensive list can be found at What are the Virtues?)

Actions inspired by virtue and in accordance with God's laws are good. Evil actions are the result of using our creativity and freedom to further goals that are purely animal in nature. That is, an animal, a chimp for example, since he does not have knowledge of good and evil, can follow his impulses for food, sex, dominant position, etc. in what ever way he will. Since he is constrained by lack of knowledge of good and evil, nothing that he does can be evil (i.e. "morally reprehensible"). A human, having knowledge of good and evil, needs to balance these animal impulses with spiritual virtues or he may act in ways that are morally reprehensible; ways that the chimp would find literally "unthinkable".

Therefore, God has given us free will and the knowledge of good and evil so that we can learn virtues, which he has given us in potential, but which we must develop by our own volition. (I suspect that in the next world it will be important that we have learned to master our own volition.)

The question then remains of why God allows suffering, and certainly your example of the suffering of a child who has been raped is a powerful one to consider. I don't have a good answer, but I thank you for pressing me to try to develop one! What I will say is: When we see or hear of examples of such suffering that has been caused by the evil actions of our fellow humans, most of us will experience outrage, sympathy, perhaps shame, and other such reactions. Because we see the suffering that evil actions cause, and feel sympathy for that suffering, we are motivated to avoid committing such actions ourselves.

If we examine our own behavior in the light of our reactions to the suffering caused by our own actions and the actions others, it should motivate us to choose to strive to develop our virtues: our tendency to commit only good actions that have a positive effect on others.

I am a man of a certain age, do you think through my thoughts and travels these persectives are new to me? I have heard these arguments a thousand times, I know all about this higher purpose and all the other excuses that are wheeled out. I have even used them myself in my youth.

I dont know if its a blind spot or believers dont really want to confront the truth. I have ever sympathy for those who are forced to accept the truth but the truth will set you free. You have to consider this god in detail, he created us imperfect in the hope we might just achieve perfection. OR did he know we would reach perfection? Why did he create us imperfect instead of creating us perfect? Is the journey for us a necessity? Why are we here, is it for our benefit or gods?

Now remember those questions, now consider this threads question...If god is good and he can do exactly what he likes because he has limitless power, he is all powerful, why did he make us capable of evil, why does he permit it? Now I dont know about you but after a million years of humanity and its evil ways , why am I still imperfect, capable of the most horrendous evil. I would much rather be perfect , would you?

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@Alan McDougall,

It's going circular fellas... If ya just wanna argue, that's fine, it helps the circulation (pun intended)... But if knowledge is desired, at least knowledge of plausible considerations, then either pick up a Bible, or a Qur'an, or a Bhagavad-Gita and read them (all online), or enlighten yourselves to one of the many established philosophical arguments such as the Logical Problem of Evil Logical Problem of Evil*[The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] or the Evidential Problem of Evil Evidential Problem of Evil, The*[The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] or even the New (or Old) Evil Demon Problem Evil Demon Problem, The New*[The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Many answers have been presented for this question. I can't help it if you choose not to accept any of them. We have mostly established that God isn't even required to discuss Evil, and thus I propose this Q is a strawman Q that does not follow a logical tautology of qualifier questions... i.e.

What is Evil?
What is God?

As it has also been demonstrated that Pain and Suffering are not "Evil", we must reconsider Evil. Tragedy is tragedy, it is not inherently Evil either. We've clearly demonstrated that Pain, Suffering, and Tragedy can also lead to Goodness. We can no longer follow a line of reasoning that Pain, Suffering, Tragedy are Evil, lest we must also admit that Evil can lead to Good, and therefor a source of Good. Preposterous!

The Q, Why does G permit Evil, can no longer be equated with Why does G permit Pain, Suffering, and Tragedy... They are different questions, and the last 10 pages of this thread have been spent establishing that.

I've offered two definitions for Evil. One that is intended, and one that is endured. Both require sentient entities.

The only logical path from here is to determine the actual source of Evil, beyond Pain, Suffering, and Tragedy. This is the only way to move the discussion forward.

Otherwise the Q will hover and drown on Why does a Perfect God allow an Imperfect thing to exist? And no one is prepared to realize that a Perfect God doesn't require all things to be perfect... He not Neurotic! A Perfect Being can allow Imperfections... That might be one of the qualities of being a perfect Being.

Shall I pick my poor child up every time he stumbles? Shall I teach him to cry out of fear? Shall I deny him the strength of facing fear on his own, realizing that phantom, watching it vanish before his very eyes. Now he jumps back up after a fall, and instead of running to Daddy in fear, he quickly rejoins the playground of life without fear.

__________________________________________________

Fear is the enemy, and we invent a trap called Evil to try and catch it. Might as well catch a Ghost.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

I dont think I can take much more of this blinkered thinking. You aint god, your human and humans have to do the very best they can.

You can describe evil any dam way you choose...You can describe god any way you choose...but evil exists. Tell me what purpose does it serve? what purpose do we serve?

Do you think your existance is worth one child's painful death? Do you think your presence here is valuable enough. This inevitable attainment god has gifted us, for what? please tell me for what? I dont give a dam about my salvation from sin and the eventual union with this weirdo you call god. I just want peace on earth now and not read in the papers another child has died for my salvation...

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;122739 wrote:

I dont give a dam about my salvation from sin and the eventual union with this weirdo you call god.

OK that's great! It means you admit that God is not required to answer the question, "I dont give a dam about... this weirdo" seems to confirm this. Thus we can change Why does God permit Evil... to simply, Why is there Evil?

Why is there Evil?

xris;122739 wrote:

I just want peace on earth now and not read in the papers another child has died for my salvation...

NP... let's take God out of it altogether. So why is there Evil? Because Humanity is Evil. Why isn't there Peace on Earth Now? Because Humanity won't allow it. Why do children die? Because people die.

Taking God out of it makes these questions simple. We just look to Chaos and Nature and the answers get pretty smooth... We don't have to ignorantly suppose that we are Gods ourselves either.

But with a God, we must consider the possibility of the mind of one who knows what we cannot. You don't like that.

Evil will end when Mankind ceases to be Evil. It's that simple.

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122740 wrote:

OK that's great! It means you admit that God is not required to answer the question, "I dont give a dam about... this weirdo" seems to confirm this. Thus we can change Why does God permit Evil... to simply, Why is there Evil?

Why is there Evil?

NP... let's take God out of it altogether. So why is there Evil? Because Humanity is Evil. Why isn't there Peace on Earth Now? Because Humanity won't allow it. Why do children die? Because people die.

Taking God out of it makes these questions simple. We just look to Chaos and Nature and the answers get pretty smooth... We don't have to ignorantly suppose that we are Gods ourselves either.

But with a God, we must consider the possibility of the mind of one who knows what we cannot. You don't like that.

Evil will end when Mankind ceases to be Evil. It's that simple.

O so right, take god out of the equation and we have reality. When man stops looking for salvation via this elusive god and took responsibility for its own actions we might just move forward. Evil is mans work, not gods because god does not exist..Create your god and he takes responsibility for this fiasco. You decide if he exists and if he does, in your opinion, answer my questions...You cant have it both ways..

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@Alan McDougall,

Are we talking about Evil or Salvation?

It's been demonstrated that Evil can exist without a God to blame it on.

It's been demonstrated the Evil can come from the hearts of Men.

What perfection is there in a being that does not allow other beings to be themselves? Shall we tell the Lion not to be Lion? The Goat not to be Goat? Would a perfect being insist upon a Frog being like God?

God lets us be... and watches us be Evil to one another

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@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122751 wrote:

Are we talking about Evil or Salvation?

It's been demonstrated that Evil can exist without a God to blame it on.

It's been demonstrated the Evil can come from the hearts of Men.

What perfection is there in a being that does not allow other beings to be themselves? Shall we tell the Lion not to be Lion? The Goat not to be Goat? Would a perfect being insist upon a Frog being like God?

God lets us be... and watches us be Evil to one another

But no one is blaming God for evil. At least, I am not. I would like to know, however, why you think God does not prevent evil (or, rather, since I have made a present of the word "evil" to you, and I don't want to be an Indian-giver, not evil, but pain and suffering). I don't blame God for pain and suffering, but isn't it peculiar that he does not prevent pain and suffering if He can, and if He is all-good? You see the difference between God causing pain and suffering, and God not preventing pain and suffering? Physicians do not cause pain and suffering, but they do try to prevent it, or, at least, try to take it away. Can't God do that? What if a physician watched a child suffer, and just "let it be". What would you think of the physician, I wonder?

1 Reply

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;122751 wrote:

Are we talking about Evil or Salvation?

It's been demonstrated that Evil can exist without a God to blame it on.

It's been demonstrated the Evil can come from the hearts of Men.

What perfection is there in a being that does not allow other beings to be themselves? Shall we tell the Lion not to be Lion? The Goat not to be Goat? Would a perfect being insist upon a Frog being like God?

God lets us be... and watches us be Evil to one another

Are you paying attention? evil has got nothing to do with god...that is if you dont believe in god, but you do..You tell me that evil is essential for us to overcome, so we can receive redemption. God created evil for us to overcome , sorry but that sounds a bit bizarre to me.

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@Alan McDougall,

I think it's difficult to judge God with human scales. Is Earth good or bad to us?

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@Alan McDougall,

what have we established so far?

First we are presupposing that God exists

second we determined that evil is an objectively morally unjustifiable intent or desire

Third, we determined that pain and suffering are not evil.

It then follows that the only reason evil exists is because we are free moral agents

It also follows that God allows pain and suffering because they are not bad for us.

So the real question then becomes is free will worth the evil we can commit?

To which I emphatically say YES! Keep in mind that for all the evil we are capable of, we are capable of even greater good. In the same way that darkness cannot overcome light....no matter how dark the room may be it cannot extinguish a light source.
Next consider a toy robot that can walk and talk and ask yourself if you'd rather be that. I think the answer is no.
Next consider your concept of perfection. Consider a glove that fits my hand perfectly. Is that glove any less perfect because it cannot bake me a cake? No. We can still say the glove is perfect because it is exhibiting it's nature. In a similar way, it is in our nature to experience pain and suffering. We cannot say we aren't perfect because we cannot live a pain free and suffering free life because it is in our nature to do so. The only reason we are not perfect is because we are free moral agents who do not always do what is right.

1 Reply

@Pepijn Sweep,

Pepijn Sweep;122786 wrote:

I think it's difficult to judge God with human scales. Is Earth good or bad to us?

No ones judging him , its simply asking a question about the logic of belief.

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@kennethamy,

kennethamy;122775 wrote:

I would like to know, however, why you think God does not prevent evil...

Because if Evil is from Man, then he would be preventing Man from exercising free will.

You don't blame God for Evil... good! Then Evil has to come from somewhere... The only place I see Evil is in the hearts of Men, when they don't empathize with the suffering of another Man.

God doesn't make us be good to one another. Out of respect for our autonomy. Nor does he prevent our Evil, out of the same respect. Sure, he could, but then we would be merely be his puppets. No real relationship can form between Puppet and Puppet Master.

kennethamy;122775 wrote:

...but isn't it peculiar that he does not prevent pain and suffering if He can, and if He is all-good?

Not at all. A qualifier for being "all good" is to allow imperfection to exist. It is up to us to perfect ourselves and reject Evil on our own. We do this by looking deep into the seed of every motive from Man. I've explained this before.

Only in this way, may we overcome Evil, with or without God.

kennethamy;122775 wrote:

Physicians do not cause pain and suffering, but they do try to prevent it, or, at least, try to take it away.

When they are given the opportunity, yes, they try and prevent suffering. But it is not the decision of the Physician. It's up to the patient to decide if they want help or not.

kennethamy;122775 wrote:

What if a physician watched a child suffer, and just "let it be". What would you think of the physician, I wonder?

I am still trying to figure out why I watch children suffer, and never do anything about it myself. What right do I have to hold another being accountable for that which I am guilty of myself?

Perhaps the Great Physician understands Pain and Suffering as his most capable tools for bringing forth Goodness. We've already established that Good can arise from both Pain and Suffering alike.

---------- Post added 01-26-2010 at 03:13 PM ----------

xris;122778 wrote:

...evil has got nothing to do with god...that is if you dont believe in god, but you do..

You accuse me of believing in a Childrens Picture Bible version of God. I've already described my God as Truth/Info/Signal. What religion will you cast upon me? Describe the God that you don't believe in please... We're not even embracing the same concepts to God yet somehow believe we will attribute this charge upon him.

xris;122778 wrote:

You tell me that evil is essential for us to overcome, so we can receive redemption.

No I did not. I said that Evil is Entropy and that it only serves to degrade the original Truth of Humanity.

xris;122778 wrote:

God created evil for us to overcome , sorry but that sounds a bit bizarre to me.

Well it should, because God did not create Evil. Humans created Evil... Even the Childrens Picture Bible says so, when Eve tasted the fruit from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Bam! Evil is born! Biblically speaking of course.

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