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What if Hitler had never been born or had been assasinated

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 05:53 am
@Aedes,
We see many interpretations of the christian faith and the mentality that describes their views.Who would have thought that Hitler helped make this the perfect world it is..:perplexed: The mind boggles at the reasoning and the brain washing that created this chain of thought, the awful thing, his not alone.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:35 am
@Alan McDougall,
I'd just ask Bonaventurian to consider, in light of another recent thread, whether this world in which abortion is legal is God's best possible world.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 10:43 am
@Alan McDougall,
Trying to predict what would have happened absent the influence of Hitler is a matter of casting bones and reading entrails.

The atomic bomb certainly would have been discovered and most likely by the Germans. Remember it was Einstein who warned FDR about German research into this weapon. Whether such a weapon would have played a role in redressing German anger at the Treaty of Versailles is an interesting point of speculation. Those who see WWII as simply the 'second half' to WWI would undoubtedly have useful views on that.

The exploration of space would have happened albeit at a much slower pace. The military development of rocketry in Germany was certainly several steps up from Goddard's research experiments in the US and the Cold War clearly turbocharged both rocketry and space exploration but both were bound to occur eventually.

A Cold War? I tend to agree with BrightNoon. Some clash between Communism and Democratic Capitalism was bound to occur and it seems quite plausible that Communism might have blossomed in China even without the destabilizing effects of Nazi Germany and the Triple Axis. The pace, however, would have been much more relaxed. Russia (the main Soviet) was transformed from a predominantly agrarian state to a relatively advanced industrial state thanks to Hitler's aggression. I expect it would have had a more difficult climb to post-war superpowerdom otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:04 am
@Alan McDougall,
The Germans might have discovered the bomb were Hitler not around, but Hitler had basically scrapped his nuclear weapons program as early as 1941 or so. Stalin, after the capture of Berlin, searched frantically for evidence of a German nuclear program and it was very undeveloped.

What became the Cold War already existed before WWII ever started. Stalin's relationship with FDR was distant, and his relationship with Churchill was frigid -- he didn't trust him in the slightest. Stalin engaged in the Nazi-Soviet Pact, which completely alienated him from his later allies, and he constantly berated Britain and the US after 1941 to invade the European continent and chided them for procrastinating it. As soon as the tide began to turn he was expressing designs on who would govern Poland, Romania, and Yugoslavia at the end of the war.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:56 am
@Aedes,
Is it conceivable that god planned the rise of Hitler and the consequences, to end the progress of the atomic research in Germany? It might be of historic interest the sequence of events but these ifs and buts do not make a benevolent gods intervention in our history a valid argument.My old battalion was wiped out at Arnhem and from a Germans point of view it would have been better if that battle had succeeded by the british as the allies would have secured Poland and east Germany before the Russians could arrive.We could go on forever with ifs and buts but history has been decided its the future we should secure.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 12:20 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Xris - Gott Mit Uns? Isn't She always "mit uns" no matter the side?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 12:33 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;68056 wrote:
Xris - Gott Mit Uns? Isn't She always "mit uns" no matter the side?
If you believe in Gott it might be relevant.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 02:09 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I hear you on that.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:17 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;67963 wrote:
God did that at the end of creation, according to your doctrine. He didn't do that in 1945.

If whatever happens MUST have happened because for God this is the best possible world, then we have no free will. And the absence of free will completely nullifies the concept of morality, because you can't discuss morality if we have no choice. If God is going to test our faith by killing babies and making people suffer, then **** him.

Oh come on, most of the Nazis were practicing Christians who did believe in God. Hitler did. Goebbels did. Hitler thought that his ideological mentor, Rosenberg, was a freak because Rosenberg was so anti-Christian.

Now, they believed in a perversion of Christianity of sorts. Hitler specifically thought the commandment against killing and the ethic of pity for the weak were abominable.


Paul I have often heard we must forgive and forget, in this case it is HE GOD that must ask humanity to forgive him for apparently standing back and doing nothing while millions and millions of innocent woman children and men were slaughtered by the Hitler regime

Can you say G-D we forgive you for your sins!!??
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:39 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Ah, Alan. You've chosen the photo of Einstein as your representation. What were Einstein's beliefs in Christian faith?
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 02:41 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;68195 wrote:
Ah, Alan. You've chosen the photo of Einstein as your representation. What were Einstein's beliefs in Christian faith?


I cont know Einsteins belief was about Christianity, I know he gave credence to the possibility of an intellective behind the creation of the universe

Tell me I like these quotes by great men and woman of course

I remember Mahatma Gandhi once saying he liked and admired Jesus and would have embraced Christianity if it were not for Christains (there bad examle) a really good idea

Peace
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2009 03:59 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Ghandi was asked what he thought of Western civilization. He replied, "I think it would be a good idea."
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2009 05:42 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;68195 wrote:
What were Einstein's beliefs in Christian faith?
Aside from the fact that he was a pantheistic Jew?
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2009 08:47 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;68638 wrote:
Aside from the fact that he was a pantheistic

Jew?


I thought he was an atheist Paul?
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2009 08:56 pm
@Alan McDougall,
He was Jewish, but as far as I know he didn't practice. He identified with Baruch de Spinoza, and believed in a god that did not really correspond to a doctrinal god.
0 Replies
 
EquesLignite
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jun, 2009 10:48 am
@Alan McDougall,
History won't change much even if Hitler was not born, did not become a Nazi leader, or was assassinated. It was the idea of fascistic-racist-nationalist-expansionist-militarist political entity that preceded Hitler's coming to power. Some other leader of comparable atrocity would have taken his place.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jun, 2009 11:38 am
@Alan McDougall,
A fascist regime would certainly not have required him -- I mean there were fascist regimes in Spain, Italy, and Hungary at the time too.

But I doubt that a fascist regime under Goehring or Hess (the most likely alternatives to Hitler) would have been so military expansionist, and it's doubtful that mass exterminations would have happened (though persecution certainly would have).
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Jun, 2009 12:22 pm
@Aedes,
Speculating on what might have been reminds me of waking up in the middle of the night regretting my past days errors.No regrets just learn and try to do a little better tomorrow.
0 Replies
 
james gravil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 02:42 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;50213 wrote:
Hitler was quite possibly the worst military strategist in the history of the planet. Stalin was horrible as well, but Stalin got better as the war went on and Hitler got worse.


That's a sweeping statement and a somewhat cliched view of Hitler's leadership. Too often people - politicans especially, it seems! - are judged by their final days, by their failures and not by their successes beforehand. Hitler was in fact an outstandingly gifted and successful leader and tactician, at least in the early days of the War; his main fault (accentuated by irrational judgment and a growing paranoia over the years) was a refusal to listen to the advice of his subordinates, and to consider all who might gainsay him as personal challenges. Let us not forget, he gained tremendous victories against France and Poland, the two countries capitulating in only four weeks and six weeks respectively - with France possessing the largest army and one of the strongest air-forces in Europe, more than a match it is now believed for the Nazi Army in its early days - dwarfing the achievements of previous conquerors like Napoleon. His Blitzkreig, 'Lightning Warfare' was a dramatic response to the defensive stances and attitudes of countries like France, many of which relied heavily and squandered vast quantities of men, money and resources on fortifications that failed to live up to their promise. Thus he demonstrated an innate ability to perceive the weakness of an enemy's attitude in warfare, and exploit it. Blitzkreig was a revelation at the time, an unexpected change from the mud-filled trenches of the Great War: even after twenty years many of the great Powers were still operating in their early 1900s mindset, and both Britain and France failed to perceive the danger of an *aggressive* Germany, complacent in their English Channel and Maginot Line. Although Hitler himself was probably not the first to conceive of this style of warfare, he was certainly the first to pioneer it, and put it to such effective and dramatic use.
Within a few years of the start of the War, Hitler had most of Europe under his thumb, or working in alliance with him. Churchill's Britain alone remained defiant, and, although a constant thorn in Hitler's side, it was beleaguered and at this point effectively incapable of defeating Germany by itself, or even presenting a serious threat to Hitler's goal for world domination. America had entered the War by the end of 1941, but it would not take an active role in European affairs until 1943 - at first it was more preoccupied with Japan, whom the Americans after Pearl Harbour regarded as the 'real enemy' - and its aid initially was mainly financial. For now, El Alamein, the Invasion of Italy and the Battle of Normandy were all in the distant future. The latter two could not have been accomplished if not for the involvement of the Soviet Union.

The first few months of Hitler's invasion of Russia were a tremendous success, eclipsing the success of Napoleon's armies more than a century before. The Luftwaffe destroyed more than one third of the Soviet Union's air-force on the ground within the first few days, and the German army advanced hundreds of miles into Soviet territory. By autumn the Wehrmacht was already knocking on the gates of Leningrad (there it would stay until 1944), and by winter was close to encircling Moscow, the Russian capital. If Moscow had fallen, it seems likely that the Soviet Union would have collapsed; in any case the morale of its troops could not have sustained such a blow, and Stalin might have had no choice but to consider capitulation.
Like many men who enjoy great success to begin with, Hitler's greatest error was in trying to do too much all at once, without paying heed to tactical considerations. He wanted to seize the Southern Caucasus, with its food supplies and rich oil fields, essential to the war effort - yet many of his generals believed he should concentrate his forces on Moscow instead, and deliver the death blow to Russia quickly. Hitler, however, ignored these suggestions, and plunged ahead mercilessly. This, in my opinion, was the real turning point of the War. Stalingrad merely sealed the deal. By winter 1941 Hitler's hopes of a quick victory in Russia were finished. The Wehrmacht's failure to seize Moscow gave the Soviets time to regroup, to muster their forces and organise a series of massive counter-offensives (commonly known as Stalin's 'Winter Offensive'), gradually weakening the German position. Stalin's 'scorched-earth' policy, which destroyed all valuables, fuel and livestock in the path of the invaders, made things even tougher for the Germans. Afterwards, they were steadily eroded in strength and finally, after Stalingrad and Kursk, and the Siege of Leningrad, forced off Soviet soil forever. At this point, not even taking into account the events on the Western Front and the build-up to Normandy, the Germans had lost the War. In all this the Western Front was more of a distraction than anything else; YES, it hindered Hitler's war effort, and drew off reinforcements that might have been deployed in the East instead, and it provided Stalin's armies with essential aid; but up until 1944 (and long afterwards even then) the Russians were doing the bulk of the fighting, and the dying. Total estimated Soviet casualties during the War: 25 million. Total British and American: somewhere in the region of 1 million. (America had very few civilian casualties, and is believed to have lost only 350,000 or so soldiers; sounds like a lot, but it pales in comparison to the 8 million or so Soviet soldiers who gave their lives, or the 4-5 million Germans.)

Hitler WAS a great strategist, at least in the beginning: that no one can deny. It wasn't that he lost his tactical ability over the years, rather it became blinded by paranoia, obsession and greed. Had Hitler kept a firm grip on affairs, history might have transpired otherwise. It is easy to simply dismiss the man as 'mad' or 'power-crazy' - these are generic terms - but that would be doing him a disservice. His weaknesses are qualities we all share, in some degree; but how many men (or women) have there been who were once considered 'great', but somehow lost it along the way, and became pitied in the end rather than admired? A very relevant recent example springs to mind - Michael Jackson. You can't deny that he was a great singer and performer, but there was no doubting that his personal life (not to mention his eccentricities) got in the way of his performance. Was he any less of a great entertainer by the end of his life? Maybe not - but people thought of him differently. THAT's why people look as Michael Jackson as a pitiable character now, not the legend he once was.

Finally, as for Stalin - it wasn't that Stalin 'got better' as the War went on (that's a gross simplificaton); rather he was willing to allow some of his most trusted generals (Zhukov particularly) to take over the reins of power, and chose not to direct on a personal level. He did interfere, from time to time, and he could be just as bull-headed as Hitler; but Stalin, although like his contemporary very much a bombastic and self-important figure, was very well aware that his gifts lay less in LEADERSHIP than in ORGANISATION. This went all the way back to his revolutionary days, even before the Bolshevik movement: Stalin would sometimes participate himself in raids and 'terrorist' activities, but he actually preferred to be the one distributing pamphlets and motivating people, rather than riding around shot-gun. Having himself never served in the Army (shock!) he had relatively little knowledge about military matters; he was, however, superb at organising, delegating and motivating other people (albeit in a Darth Vader-ish, bullet-in-the-back-of-the-head sort of way.) When he did try to do too much, especially as he got overconfident in the final years of the war, he did make mistakes (you can accuse the other Allies of the same thing, though - look up Operation Market Garden!), yet it was Stalin's steely determination, and the iron-willed resourcefulness of the Russian people, that ultimately won the day.

In short - BOTH Stalin and Hitler were great leaders, certainly not without their faults; but these weaknesses and even Hitler's failure to accomplish his goal do not take away from their achievements. If any WWII politician's leadership ability has been inflated, in my opinion, it is surely Churchill's - he was a great orator, certainly, and important in motivating the British nation to struggle through its 'finest hour' in 1940 and 41; but for the most of the War he himself, and his country, were incapable of doing much significantly to affect the outcome or the turn of events, and after 1943 he himself recognized that he was becoming less and less important in the grand scheme of things, as the Americans gained more and more power. Churchill was by all means a heroic figure, but whether that amounts to heroic 'leadership skills' - that is up for debate.
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jul, 2009 02:52 pm
@EquesLignite,
EquesLignite;71087 wrote:
History won't change much even if Hitler was not born, did not become a Nazi leader, or was assassinated. It was the idea of fascistic-racist-nationalist-expansionist-militarist political entity that preceded Hitler's coming to power. Some other leader of comparable atrocity would have taken his place.


It's unclear that any other leader would have scapegoated Germany's Jews as Hitler did. I suspect an intelligent, nationalist leader would have appreciated their inherent loyalty to the German state and utilized their considerable talents and resources.

Don't forget, German Jews served the Kaiser very faithfully in the first war.

---------- Post added 07-06-2009 at 02:02 PM ----------

" ...Let us not forget, he gained tremendous victories against France and Poland, the two countries capitulating in only four weeks and six weeks respectively - with France possessing the largest army and one of the strongest air-forces in Europe, more than a match it is now believed for the Nazi Army in its early days - dwarfing the achievements of previous conquerors like Napoleon. His Blitzkreig, 'Lightning Warfare' was a dramatic response to the defensive stances and attitudes of countries like France, many of which relied heavily and squandered vast quantities of men, money and resources on fortifications that failed to live up to their promise. Thus he demonstrated an innate ability to perceive the weakness of an enemy's attitude in warfare, and exploit it. Blitzkreig was a revelation at the time, an unexpected change from the mud-filled trenches of the Great War

"...The first few months of Hitler's invasion of Russia were a tremendous success, eclipsing the success of Napoleon's armies more than a century before. The Luftwaffe destroyed more than one third of the Soviet Union's air-force on the ground within the first few days, and the German army advanced hundreds of miles into Soviet territory. By autumn the Wehrmacht was already knocking on the gates of Leningrad (there it would stay until 1944), and by winter was close to encircling Moscow, the Russian capital. If Moscow had fallen, it seems likely that the Soviet Union would have collapsed; in any case the morale of its troops could not have sustained such a blow, and Stalin might have had no choice but to consider capitulation."

Hitler's decision was to go to war but he can hardly be credited for Guderian's tactics. It was Hitler's foolishness that allowed British and other forces to escape at Dunkirk, hardly evidencing any strategic brilliance.

As for his stunning success in invading Russia, you omit some relevant facts. Hitler allowed himself to be distracted by Greece, creating a fatal vulnerability by delaying his attack on Russia. As for his initial successes, he was pushing on an open door. Stalin had left his country all but helpless to defend itself, refusing right to the last minute to believe all credible intelligence that he was about to be attacked. That the Germans made great initial gains was almost predestined but that hardly speaks to any strategic brilliance on the part of Hitler.
 

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