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What if Hitler had never been born or had been assasinated

 
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 05:49 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan, what would lead you to make such a preposterous statement? No one is disputing the monstrous, inherent evil that was Adolph Hitler yet you seem determined to set up that Straw Man. That seems slightly irrational.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 06:42 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;67229 wrote:
Alan, what would lead you to make such a preposterous statement? No one is disputing the monstrous, inherent evil that was Adolph Hitler yet you seem determined to set up that Straw Man. That seems slightly irrational.


How can you expect me to be rational when speaking about a person who defied all human concept's of decency and was the most irrational eternity ever to put a blot on human history

OK how should he be remembered?

Peace to you RDRDRD1
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 07:05 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I think he should be remembered, vividly remembered, for everything that he was. I think we should carry a mental image of him and his poisoned thinking, how that thinking was able to poison an entire society and then lead to inhumane savagery and world war. If only we could keep that memory of him clear and sharp in our minds we would be much better prepared to identify and renounce the hucksters, deviants and miscreants who are bound to follow.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 07:19 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;67235 wrote:
I think he should be remembered, vividly remembered, for everything that he was. I think we should carry a mental image of him and his poisoned thinking, how that thinking was able to poison an entire society and then lead to inhumane savagery and world war. If only we could keep that memory of him clear and sharp in our minds we would be much better prepared to identify and renounce the hucksters, deviants and miscreants who are bound to follow.


Now you are cooking really cooking great comment , much better than my admittedly historicism and emotional ones :bigsmile:

I have just contemplated deeply, lets assume there is a hell where an evil man would go to be tormented day and night in a lake of fire

If I were god would I send Hitler there, absolutely not, but I would extinguish his life, if there is life after death

But I am not God and it is to God he must account for his depravity etc etc

Peace dear RDRDRD1
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Jun, 2009 10:45 pm
@Alan McDougall,
We must always remember the danger in making people like Hitler appear larger than life. There was nothing superhuman about the man nor in the ethnicity he strove to place above all others. He was the product of manipulation, opportunism, very difficult times, chaos and widespread fear. In another time, in other circumstances, he might well have been nothing more than another angry crank.

What we must bear in mind, to make any meaning of the horrible things this man did, is that we'll never really be finished with his kind nor will they ever be finished with us. I think there was a time that would have gone without saying. I wish I could be confident that awareness still prevailed.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 10:00 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;67227 wrote:
Oh! thus speaking you would have no problems with him as your next door neighbor with his NAZI SS buddies visiting him day and night and checking out you genealogy at the same time??
Look, 6 of my great grandparents died in the Holocaust (all 4 of my great grandmothers died in Auschwitz), at least 15 great aunts and uncles died, and all 4 of my grandparents survived -- 3 in Auschwitz, and one survived a death march. I'm as sensitive to this as anyone.

But RDRDRD1 is exactly right in his reminder that human monsters are still humans. The Holocaust was not a one man operation -- there were thousands upon thousands of perpetrators. The Romanians killed about 250,000 Jews on their own in a huge pogrom at the very beginning of the Nazi occupation. In Lithuania and Ukraine it was not much different.

Acknowledging the humanity -- however pathologic -- of the Nazi perpetrators does nothing to diminish their cruelty or culpability, and it does nothing to diminish the tragedy its victims suffered.

In fact it's better to do so, because how can we possibly hope to understand this event if we don't see Nazism as a human failing?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 01:18 pm
@Aedes,
Its a shadow that is cast over all of us, we are humans and given the right circumstances and propaganda we to might be capable of these horrendous events.Don't be so sure of your goodness,dont be smug,be aware of your capability.
It frightens me that humans can and do sink to such barbarity but time and time again we prove our evil is ever present.
I am so happy that i have never been so depraved by life's trials.Would you rather be the oppressed or the oppressor?Id rather die a thousand deaths than inflict the pain on one child and see it cry for its mothers comfort.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 03:52 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;67356 wrote:
Look, 6 of my great grandparents died in the Holocaust (all 4 of my great grandmothers died in Auschwitz), at least 15 great aunts and uncles died, and all 4 of my grandparents survived -- 3 in Auschwitz, and one survived a death march. I'm as sensitive to this as anyone.

But RDRDRD1 is exactly right in his reminder that human monsters are still humans. The Holocaust was not a one man operation -- there were thousands upon thousands of perpetrators. The Romanians killed about 250,000 Jews on their own in a huge pogrom at the very beginning of the Nazi occupation. In Lithuania and Ukraine it was not much different.

Acknowledging the humanity -- however pathologic -- of the Nazi perpetrators does nothing to diminish their cruelty or culpability, and it does nothing to diminish the tragedy its victims suffered.

In fact it's better to do so, because how can we possibly hope to understand this event if we don't see Nazism as a human failing?


I regret my emotional in this thread but they are based on similarities to your life and parents we have in common , Jewish parent in my case my drear passed over mother

Rational thinking by rational people is the answer!
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 05:32 am
@Alan McDougall,
There's nothing wrong with emotions here. I have them as well. I just visited for the first time my dad's hometown in Hungary, which his family left 53 years ago. I saw the synagogue where my grandparents were married. And in the synagogue is a wall with the names of the roughly 5000 Jews from the town who died in the Holocaust. It deeply hurt to be so close to this place -- and some day I'm going to visit Lodz and Auschwitz and it will hurt even more.

It's ok to talk about the Nazis as monsters, but we need to realize that we're using the term metaphorically. They were indeed monstrous. But they were failed humans too. Reading the testimony and interviews of people like Franz Stangl, Rudolf Hoess, and Adolf Eichmann is shocking -- I mean how did these people live their lives with what they were doing?
0 Replies
 
Caroline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:49 am
@Alan McDougall,
How did they sleep at night?
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:52 am
@Alan McDougall,
I think it is important that we revisit these awful events and refresh our understanding of them for I'm convinced that, within a decade, two at the outside, our committment to our humanitarian ideals will be sorely tested and we may well wind up the ugly, brutal ones in these trials.

The gathering "perfect storm" of overpopulation, climate change, deforestation, desertification, species extinction, nuclear proliferation, disease and pest migration and resource (notably fresh water) exhaustion is approaching.

We in the West (Europe and North America), are the most fortunate, being the "least and last" regions affected. These afflictions, while ultimately global, will not be uniform in their impact.

One of the darkest aspects of Hitler's malevolence was to cast non-Aryans as less human, something that quickly evolved into "less than human." Unless we in the West are prepared to accept radical restructuring of our governments, our economies and even our societies (and I don't believe we are) then we are going to have to find ways to condition our people to morally withstand the mass suffering that will be visited upon Africa, South and East Asia, the Middle East and even South America.

Europe is already struggling with the onset of climate migration from Africa. Many experts (including people at the Pentagon) foresee the day when the United States will have to create an impermeable bulwark against mass migration out of Central and South America. The operative word is "impermeable." Consider what that means.

In just a decade or two, each nation's greatest threat will be the country that lies immediately between it and the equator. The face of war is changing. Now we're seeing resource wars, wars of sustenance. We actually have a fairly good history of collapsed civilizations and this shows us that the one thing each of them has done prior to collapse was to raid.

While the face of war may be changing, the essential instincts needed to prepare humans to wage and to endure it carry over.

I apologize if my remarks seem unduly apocalyptic but you have to look away very hard to escape the reality of the changes underway. We tend not to see it because we don't directly feel it - yet. For example, the collapse of major fisheries around the world is well known but we in the West are predominantly meat eaters while the major source of protein for those in the Third World is fish.

I won't go on but I do hope that I've shown that it's more important now than ever that we think on the maniacal excesses of this man Hitler and how he infected an entire, advanced nation with his poisoned ideology. In the 21st century, Lebensraum takes on an entirely new dimension.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 10:38 am
@Alan McDougall,
RD, you're correct by analogy to one thing:

One of the prime movers behind the appeal of antisemitism in Nazi Germany was the mass migration of Jews from Russia and Poland into Germany. The German Jews were regarded much more highly than the so called ostjuden, the poor Jews from the east. Jews suffered pogroms and violence in Poland, the Baltic, the Ukraine, and were met with growing xenophobia as they migrated into Germany.
0 Replies
 
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 11:08 am
@Alan McDougall,
Had Hitler never been born or had been assassinated, this world would not have been the best possible world. We may not understand it, but we must confess that since God created this world, and God is entirely Good, and in this world Hitler perpetrated the holocaust...then the holocaust and Hitler contributed to this world being the best possible, as horrible a crime as the holocaust was, and as sadistic and twisted as Hitler's crimes were.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 02:49 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;67693 wrote:
we must confess that since God created this world, and God is entirely Good, and in this world Hitler perpetrated the holocaust...then the holocaust and Hitler contributed to this world being the best possible.
If that is in God's eyes what constitutes an entirely good world, then **** God.

From La Peste by Albert Camus: "Who would dare assert that eternal paradise is worth a single moment of human suffering?"
0 Replies
 
Poseidon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 03:32 pm
@Alan McDougall,
It is precisely because the Nazi's did not believe in God, that the problem occurred!

Without falsehood there is no truth.
This is a perfection greater than mere truth itself.

I think this cult of the anti-christ, trying to blame all the 20th century problems on one person is very disturbing. His ideas only empowered him because they reflected the ideas of the majority of people around him. Reductionism at its worst.

Germans hated jews because of Versailles. Impoverished ignorant people always hate rich intelligent people. If the rich intelligent do not have this understadning and the compassion to help the impoverished illiterate, they are inviting attack. The oldest lesson in the book.

No doubt, the pre-nazis also swore at god for their problems, and that is when they lost the plot. No doubt, many jews also did this. Atheism has been a curse on the nation of Israel since the dawn of time.

You should watch the movie Richard III, a shakespearean play set as if Richard III came to power in mid 20th century Britain. It shows the extent to which a man of hatred can take take any form in any time. The decor is a nazi parody.

At least watch it only for the classic scene, when Richard III is trying to run away from his collapsing fascist state.

His jeep is stuck in the mud, and his doom is near, and he curses :
"A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!"
cracked me up.
0 Replies
 
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:16 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Aedes, for God there is no discrepency between will and intellect. If God affirmed that this is the best possible world, then God knew that this is the best possible world, and this is actually the best possible world.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:42 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;67808 wrote:
Aedes, for God there is no discrepency between will and intellect. If God affirmed that this is the best possible world, then God knew that this is the best possible world, and this is actually the best possible world.


It is painfully obvious that this is not the best possible world. Pertaining to the thread, how can you even argue that Hitler was once part of the best possible world? How can you argue that WWII was an event caused by nations in the best possible world? If that is the best possible world, and God is as you claim, then God is a total failure--kind of like the father that beats his children and wife, and sits on the couch all day slugging down cans of crappy beer while eating potato chips.
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:44 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;67812 wrote:
It is painfully obvious that this is not the best possible world. Pertaining to the thread, how can you even argue that Hitler was once part of the best possible world? How can you argue that WWII was an event caused by nations in the best possible world? If that is the best possible world, and God is as you claim, then God is a total failure--kind of like the father that beats his children and wife, and sits on the couch all day slugging down cans of crappy beer while eating potato chips.


God by definition is The Good. God created this particular world. Therefore, this world is the best possible world (or at least the best compossible). There are an infinity of possible worlds, and you can't imagine all of them. You can't say "this is not the best possible world," since it is -necessary- that it is, and you can't conceive a better one.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 04:54 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;67813 wrote:
God by definition is The Good. God created this particular world. Therefore, this world is the best possible world (or at least the best compossible). There are an infinity of possible worlds, and you can't imagine all of them. You can't say "this is not the best possible world," since it is -necessary- that it is, and you can't conceive a better one.


Sure I can. It's not very hard to conceive of a better world. God cannot be the definition of the good, because of all of the evil in the world. If God is as you claim, then he is a severely flawed creator due to this being the best possible world as you claim. I find your theology comical at best, and detrimental to human nature at its worst.

But that is totally irrelevant to the thread. Start your own thread about God being The Good by definition, and this being the best possible world.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 05:39 am
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian;67808 wrote:
If God affirmed that this is the best possible world, then God knew that this is the best possible world, and this is actually the best possible world.
God did that at the end of creation, according to your doctrine. He didn't do that in 1945.

If whatever happens MUST have happened because for God this is the best possible world, then we have no free will. And the absence of free will completely nullifies the concept of morality, because you can't discuss morality if we have no choice. If God is going to test our faith by killing babies and making people suffer, then **** him.

Poseidon;67796 wrote:
It is precisely because the Nazi's did not believe in God, that the problem occurred.
Oh come on, most of the Nazis were practicing Christians who did believe in God. Hitler did. Goebbels did. Hitler thought that his ideological mentor, Rosenberg, was a freak because Rosenberg was so anti-Christian.

Now, they believed in a perversion of Christianity of sorts. Hitler specifically thought the commandment against killing and the ethic of pity for the weak were abominable.
 

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