Solace
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 08:47 am
@jknilinux,
ari,

basically your reason for finding ultimate meaning in your life is fear of death... Am I correct? Fear of any sort seems like a poor motivator for spiritual enlightenment. I doubt that anyone has had a true epiphany while fear was their modus operandi.
ariciunervos
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 09:06 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
There are some very large inaccuracies here that you speak of as if it's biological truth. First of all, it's striking how many people on this forum speak of biological processes teleologically, as if they innately have some goal in mind. They don't. There is NO "ultimate goal of any biological entity" -- this is one of the most rudimentary points of all biological science!!! Biological processes are what they are and do what they do; and by several methods (including but absolutely not limited to natural selection) certain biological properties increase in prevalence within populations.

Yes I could've chosen better words. I never meant to imply that there is some intelligence behind evolution or a set-in-stone path that it follows towards an already set goal. What I meant to say is that, from my own point of view as an observer, it appears that evolution tends toward a goal, that is (among others, of course) prolonging the life of an organism to make sure it can reproduce repeatedly (speed, camouflage, protective shells, etc)

Aedes wrote:

Secondly, postponing death is NOT the fundamental determinant of natural selection, not even close!! The fundamental determinant is reproductive fitness. Its interest in death stops at organisms surviving to reproductive age and their offspring subsequently surviving to reproduce.

But isn't postponing death and ensuring more offspring are created pretty important too ?

Aedes wrote:
But before you wax poetic about immortality, realize the following:

1) biological senscence (aging) is associated with worse reproductive outcomes, like chromosomal errors, so having the elderly reproduce is NOT in the interest of populations

2) for species with altricious offspring, as we have, the great length of time to rear and raise children also belies the logic in old parents

3) some species, like some salmon, mate once and then die; other species die immediately after mating or the female kills the male (like mantids and other insects); and some species live in communities in which most individuals never mate in their entire life (bees) -- clearly evolution has brought these qualities about.

Then aren't organisms who live longer considered "young" for a longer period of time, thus having more time available to reproduce without errors ?

Thanks for replying, I'm not a biologist. What do you think about my idea of 'fear' as useful from an evolutionary point of view and how the invented idea of 'afterlife' could be related to it ?
0 Replies
 
ariciunervos
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 09:11 am
@Solace,
Solace wrote:
ari,

basically your reason for finding ultimate meaning in your life is fear of death... Am I correct? Fear of any sort seems like a poor motivator for spiritual enlightenment. I doubt that anyone has had a true epiphany while fear was their modus operandi.


I meant fear of dying as another name for the self preservation instinct (the one inherited from our ancestors on the evolutionary ladder), and not something like fear of clowns or spiders. I wasn't going about the ultimate meaning in life, but about the idea of afterlife and how the idea of afterlife could have been invented simply because we are governed by a desire of self preservation.
Solace
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 09:20 am
@ariciunervos,
ariciunervos wrote:
I meant fear of dying as another name for the self preservation instinct (the one inherited from our ancestors on the evolutionary ladder), and not something like fear of clowns or spiders. I wasn't going about the ultimate meaning in life, but about the idea of afterlife and how the idea of afterlife could have been invented simply because we are governed by a desire of self preservation.


Okay, I can sort of see what you're getting at now. And you're quite possibly right. But yeah, I can see now that you weren't addressing the whole "meaning of life" aspect of my prior query, but rather you were providing a possible evolutionary basis for why people desire an after-life. Thanks for explaining it to me. I know I'm a lil dense sometimes about letting things sink in.Surprised (Not a word Aedes! j/k Very Happy)
avatar6v7
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 10:46 am
@Solace,
If religous people are driven by fear then so are those of the mentality that you seem to be exhibiting. The empircal mindset. Empiricists are reductionists- they want to reduce every facet of existance to the smallest and least complex solution possible- surely any experiance of life would tell you that nothing is ever that simple. But that is exactly why reductionists are reductionists- they are frightened and disturbed by the complexitys of life and wish for everything to be explained and wrapped up in a neat little bundle.
Not to be too harsh or anything but I'm only giving as good as I'm getting here:rolleyes:
Solace
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 10:54 am
@avatar6v7,
Quote:

Not to be too harsh or anything but I'm only giving as good as I'm getting here:rolleyes:


Nah don't worry, it's all good here.

Umm... I'm not sure where or how I exhibited an empiracal mindset. Mind pointing it out?
Joe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 11:46 am
@jknilinux,
A-theist is maybe the question?
0 Replies
 
avatar6v7
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 11:47 am
@Solace,
Solace wrote:
Nah don't worry, it's all good here.

Umm... I'm not sure where or how I exhibited an empiracal mindset. Mind pointing it out?

I meant ariciunervos not you. The whole evolution thing. You seem sane:a-ok:
0 Replies
 
Solace
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 12:14 pm
@jknilinux,
Quote:

You seem sane:a-ok:


I've never been so misrepresented in my whole life. Laughing
0 Replies
 
jknilinux
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2008 04:01 pm
@jknilinux,
Aedes-

I'll use the love example you gave-

Love is an instinct. The only reason why it exists is to improve your evolutionary fitness. If you give your life to save your children out of love, you are evolutionarily more fit than a person who does not do so, because we began as -and still somewhat are- a k-selected species. In fact, love might be found in all k-selected mammals. So emotions and feeling are by definition instinct.
0 Replies
 
 

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