Atheism

@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

if anything there has been an increase in the number of miracles, visions, and religous experiance in general. It is only because these these events are not taken seriously anymore that it appears they are not happening- they are less reported, and taken less seriously.
As for proof let us begin with prooving the existance of a creator. I will begin by asking you what you think led to the existance of the universe and why?

What like destroying cities..dividing the red sea...or the type of things like kids claiming to see the virgin mary?.Is that your proof?So you think god has the will to interfere or show himself to us mortals? very interesting if you say yes...

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@ciceronianus,

avatar6v7 wrote:

god is paradoxically both immanent and trancendant. this is the paradox of the trinity- god appears in human form, but he is also beyond our universe.

Mirabile dictu! Thank you, but when I crave vague rhetoric about the trinity, I'll read Augustine. I don't think you responded to my post. Must one first read, and be convinced by, De Trinitate before one can lead a good and "meaningful" life? Were the likes of Epictetus, Epicurus, Aristotle (and others who believed in the distant "God of the Philosophers" as it used to be called) able to conceive of the good, and write thoughtfully and well on morality, and live a good and meaningful life? If so, cannot atheists do the same? If not, why not?

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@ciceronianus,

ciceronianus wrote:

Mirabile dictu! Thank you, but when I crave vague rhetoric about the trinity, I'll read Augustine. I don't think you responded to my post. Must one first read, and be convinced by, De Trinitate before one can lead a good and "meaningful" life? Were the likes of Epictetus, Epicurus, Aristotle (and others who believed in the distant "God of the Philosophers" as it used to be called) able to conceive of the good, and write thoughtfully and well on morality, and live a good and meaningful life? If so, cannot atheists do the same? If not, why not?

atheists can indeed live perfectly good lives and thinkers like the above mentioned could do all that you said. that's all fine. I never said that I thought that we had to believe in god or the trinity to live meaningfull lives but I do think that these meaningfull lives recieve meaning from the ultimate source of meaning- God - without their words acknowlaging it.
As for 'vaugely worder rhetoric about the trinity' you would do well to read Augustine as he explains this better than me in a casual internet post (dah) but here goes anyway.
God created the universe, the laws it works by, all that we know and can ever know. However he trancends are universe through this very act- by being a being capable of creating the universe he is above it's laws, beyond it's scope- a distant god. However as a trancendent being he is not beholden to remain distant. He can trancend the very distance that he puts between us because he is as you describe. He is fully involved in his creation because he is outside of it.

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@avatar6v7,

I was at work yesterday and didn't have a chance to respond. This is a conversation that has been part of this thread since the beginning, so it's hardly off topic.

avatar6v7;34505 wrote:

could you try not to refer back too far and put things off track. not that you aren't making interesting points but it would be good if things could stay on topic.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

I was at work yesterday and didn't have a chance to respond. This is a conversation that has been part of this thread since the beginning, so it's hardly off topic.

things have rather moved on but fine, go ahead

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@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

:brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall::brickwall:
sorry about that, and you probably feel the same way but how much clearer do I have to make this? Ok here goes-

Is this view correct?

No. That view is flawed and wrong. But I have determined that this is the action which provides consequences in which I am most willing to deal with. It is not that this is correct, only that this is how it is currently, until I find more evidence which requires a change towards a different point of view which will also be incorrect. The next question you might ask is how do I meassure progress towards my goal if I have no standard of better or worse. The simple answer is that I don't. I allow things to come and go and change my perspective as they will with as little judgment as I can manage. As I learn more, I judge less but this is not necessarily correct either. I may be going the right direction but it is very doubtful. It is more likely that I am going in the completely wrong direction but I will not know until I get there, which I never will.

Otherwise, I am still waiting for proof. The miracles you speak of can be explained quit simply through physics and I have my own idea as to the creation of the universe through quantum mechanics. I am still waiting for true proof. Miracles are not proof as they are simply a series of non-coincidental applications of physics in a situation where the human mind may not be able to preceive the events which took place in a clear manner. So our memory tricks us into believing something which fits our belief structure. I have been declared dead three times in my life and there was no light, no afterlife, no nothing. I simply ceased to be and then woke up.

1 Reply

@Icon,

on what basis do you change your opinion (or whatever you want to call it- viewpoint or somthing)? If the basis is proof what is mean't by proof? what kind of proof do you accept?
Also I never claimed that miracles proved god's existance.
Oh and by the way 'your view is flawed and wrong' is an absolutist view- by your own word you should be willing to accept I might be right. Also such a statement requires a believed right to define the wrong.

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@jknilinux,

khethil-
I think I understand now. Life has meaning, even if it is a transient accident. And, if this is the case, then Pascal's wager no longer applies, since I think it somewhat relies on life having no meaning whatsoever if we do not have a God.

Solace-
Sure. If a higher power exists and has a purpose for you, whether you know what it is or not, it gives meaning to your life.

Icon-
You said:
"If we cannot prove God, this means that God is a concept in the human mind."
I disagree. In fact, if God exists, then because He is omnipotent and does not want us to know with 100% certainty of His existence, then He will intentionally hide himself from us. So, no matter what, He is unprovable.

xris-
I think avatar is saying that good must be measured in terms of an absolute, and this absolute is God. Goodness cannot exist without God, because God makes everything have meaning, as opposed to the Schopenhaurian nihilism that is atheism. However, like I said, I think I'm starting to see how atheists can find meaning without God.

I need to mull all this over...

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@jknilinux,

Whoa- 3 more pages! I was only replying to page 6 above, so I'm sorry if it's out of date. If it is, nevermind it.

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@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

on what basis do you change your opinion (or whatever you want to call it- viewpoint or somthing)? If the basis is proof what is mean't by proof? what kind of proof do you accept?
Also I never claimed that miracles proved god's existance.
Oh and by the way 'your view is flawed and wrong' is an absolutist view- by your own word you should be willing to accept I might be right. Also such a statement requires a believed right to define the wrong.

Its you that claimed miracles existed and by doing so you infer the right to claim god exists because of them ..now are they gods work or not...i fear this debate will be terminated before we really get a reasonable reply to proof of this god..

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@jknilinux,

Aedes-

First of all, thanks for answering my question from a while back. I think that was very on-topic. Anyway, I didn't mean to get into a discussion into how random evolution is. If I wanted to make my description of evolution 100% correct, it would be 3 pages long, just like your correction. Of course it is not totally random, but that has nothing to do with my point. My point is that, from an evolutionary perspective, the most successful individual is the one with the most surviving offspring. So, that is what evolution usually selects for, so I was saying that if we evolved without a God, then we are just machines meant to reproduce.

Khethil set me straight, though :sarcastic:

1 Reply

@avatar6v7,

avatar6v7 wrote:

on what basis do you change your opinion (or whatever you want to call it- viewpoint or somthing)? If the basis is proof what is mean't by proof? what kind of proof do you accept?
Also I never claimed that miracles proved god's existance.
Oh and by the way 'your view is flawed and wrong' is an absolutist view- by your own word you should be willing to accept I might be right. Also such a statement requires a believed right to define the wrong.

I do accept that you COULD be right. That does not stop me from wanting proof. Proof that you have yet to provide and have skillfully avoided.

Also, there is a correct in a sense. I am just not capable of it. The only way to be correct, save for some random shot at chance, to have all of the information involved in a subject in order to make your choice. The only way to be correct is to consider everything. In order to be correct, I must know everything.

jknilinux wrote:

Icon-
You said:
"If we cannot prove God, this means that God is a concept in the human mind."
I disagree. In fact, if God exists, then because He is omnipotent and does not want us to know with 100% certainty of His existence, then He will intentionally hide himself from us. So, no matter what, He is unprovable.

IF god exists. At this point, without proof, without evidence, he is nothing more than a concept which is created in your mind. Which is why your preception of god is different from anyone elses. You are creating the idea of god as you see it from your understanding of it. Thus, god is in your head.

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@jknilinux,

Icon-
That's the reason why there are organized denominations. To promote unity in understanding.

1 Reply

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

Icon-
That's the reason why there are organized denominations. To promote unity in understanding.

I'm aware, but how can you hope to understand something that you cannot even prove to be real? All you are doing is learning how to understand your own preception of your imaginary friend. I am not saying that he does or does not exist. I'm saying that I want proof. If he is real then proof exists. Period.

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@jknilinux,

Jknilinux,

I think an alternative way to approach this topic is to acknowledge up front that most self-proclaimed atheists are moral people whose values differ very little from theists.

So clearly people can be moral and have meaningful lives without theism. And even if there isn't a justification that appeals to you, like the existential one I offer, that reflects how different and diverse are the ways in which normal humans can conceptualize meaning and morality.

By the way, I apologize if my post on evolutionary biology came off as too aggressive or harsh, I did not intend it that way.

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@jknilinux,

Quote:

Solace-
Sure. If a higher power exists and has a purpose for you, whether you know what it is or not, it gives meaning to your life.

Thank you jkn for your straightforward answer. When I asked that question this morning I had no clue it would lead to this discussion, the direction it's gone these last 3 or 4 pages.

Before the theists and atheists proceed any further into tearing the meaning of each other's lives apart, I'd like to say a few things.

First, to the theists. God doesn't give your life meaning. You do. If you decide that God is the meaning to your life, that's your decision, but you still made it, not God. (For those who know me, forego my conflicting views on free will for this discussion, I'm just trying to make a point.) But consider what it is that you are doing when you "give your life to God", so to speak. Life was God's gift to you. He doesn't need it back, he has his own. I won't go into just now my own views on religion or how one should live their life, but read between the bible lines once in a while and you'll see that all God really asks anyone to do is to be yourself. Don't live by rules or examples, live free to be yourself. Because if God made you, then he must have thought you were worth making to be you, and not to be what someone says some book tells you to be, such as a Christ-clone. Celebrate Christ for who he was, and celebrate you for who you are. Cause you don't need Christ's example or any ancient book to live a good life if you just use your own God-given common sense.

To the atheists: you all know full well that avatar nor any other theist can offer you proof of God. He's avoiding the question because he cannot answer it. Now, he came on a bit strong, so I understand why you guys went after him they way you did. But the whole God proof debate has happened in countless threads on this forum, and it is always resolved with the same conclusion. There is no proof.

1 Reply

@Solace,

Firstly thanks for the cleverly attached to the avoiding bit of prooving god. I appeciate that. About meaning I think that we find meaning at a personal level but that meaning itslelf has it's source in god. Belief in god is not a neccesisty for a meaningful life, but god is a neccesity for meaningfull life. Does that make that clear?
Not to seem like I am avoiding the point:bigsmile:, I will get straight back to it. Though I would like to say that icon is avoidng saying he thinks he's right.
I will answer the challenge. I will start a new thread. I will give you proof of God's existance and all you have to do is post what kind of proof you wish me to give.

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@jknilinux,

Aedes-

I agree; atheists can have morals and values. Atheists can have moral lives without God- it's the meaningful part that I'm not so sure on. I'm still thinking on what khethil said...

By the way, I never even thought that. I appreciate criticism. Is what I just said (the second time) about evolution correct, as far as you know?

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@jknilinux,

Solace-

I agree with a lot of what you said.
Anyway, my only criticism:
"if God made you, then he must have thought you were worth making to be you"
etc...
I never like "if God did this, then He must..." arguments. They seem to assume too much, IMO. You can never really conclude anything about God, aside from what the Bible gives.

1 Reply

@jknilinux,

jknilinux wrote:

You can never really conclude anything about God, aside from what the Bible gives.

bravely going against millenia of theological interpetation of God. Nice.
Seriously, reason is a valauable tool in understanding God, and the bible is written by humans; intelligent, insightful and honest humans reccording Christ's teachings, but still human and therefore fallable.

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