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Consciousness is a Biological Problem

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:47 am
@KaseiJin,
KJ wrong and right are a matter of perspective not actual knowledge.You can no longer point to a part of the brain and say that is where consciousness abides than you can say art is a function of animal instincts.You make to many assumptions on your logic as if it was a proven concept.You cant prove that thoughts are not ethereal and only manifest themselves in human ambition, you describe the medium not the artist.
Experiences, circumstantial evidence and now even more unbelievable witness,build to say your well defined scientific bias is not that solid an argument.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:56 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;76936 wrote:
I think here, instead of trying to appeal for other terms in any real, or unreal, effort to (shall we say) protect the single sense which has come down to us today of that word, as a noun, 'conscious,' it is best to see it as it describes what brain is and does, straight across the counter.


... I think you would encounter significant disagreement on this point from cognitive scientists ... according to their way of thinking, cognition is more fundamental than consciousness (e.g., intelligence does not require full-blown self-awareness) ... and if you want a noun to describe "what brain is and does, straight across the counter", I think the noun that they would propose is "mind" ...

KaseiJin;76936 wrote:
Tissue was used so as to help get across the concept inherent in the word brain, as a collective, uncountable noun, and the term the (or a) brain, as a concrete, countable noun; there is a difference. It is the fine tuned difference between these that allows for statment differences in the like of : the mind is brain, but the brain is not the mind. That embedded explanation had no further intent beyond this application--to show that most of the brain is tissue as opposed to 'juices' [but in a general sense here].


... but again, how do you justify the claim that "conscious" is an uncountable noun? ... uncountable nouns such as "tissue" and "water" name quasi-objects that are the physically manifested emergent properties of the interactions within a collective ... is there such a quasi-object that the noun "conscious" names?
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:58 am
@KaseiJin,
We have gone over that matter of not finding consciousness in a single gyrus, nucleus, or even lobe. . . that is no big deal at all. The understanding that that leads to is that consciousness is projected from conscious brain.

The other things you are trying to draw up as if they were firm conclusions are simply misplaced. For example, you appear to have no working knowledge of memory formation. Please go and do some homework first, and then come back and try to explain how an implanted heart will operate on that process, ok?
Jay phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 09:02 am
@paulhanke,
Thanks to all for this very stimulating thread.

KJ, I wish you well on the journey.
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 09:05 am
@paulhanke,
Thanks for getting back, paulhanke. I do believe your questions can be answered by getting hold of a good dictionary. Also, please trust me when I say I have connections with neuroscientists, some on a somewhat personal level, others on simply the society level. I fairly trust my understanding that there would be no problem with using conscious instead of cognition.

If you don't mind, please see if a good dictionary will not answer towards both your questions. I have to get some shut eye, now, and will bet back tomorrow...later in the week I'll be tied up again, and may be off a couple or so days.


EDIT: Thanks Jay, be it a journey or not, I'd be reluctant to say, but, I appreciate your thoughts and wishes.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 09:19 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;77003 wrote:
We have gone over that matter of not finding consciousness in a single gyrus, nucleus, or even lobe. . . that is no big deal at all. The understanding that that leads to is that consciousness is projected from conscious brain.

The other things you are trying to draw up as if they were firm conclusions are simply misplaced. For example, you appear to have no working knowledge of memory formation. Please go and do some homework first, and then come back and try to explain how an implanted heart will operate on that process, ok?
I have no idea how an implanted heart could transmit the donors memory to the recipient or influence the character of the recipient.My point being is that you will believe certain theories that will certainly be refined or altered by advances in medical knowledge but not anything else.You have made your mind up before the journeys over.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 09:39 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;77010 wrote:
Thanks for getting back, paulhanke. I do believe your questions can be answered by getting hold of a good dictionary.


... no, I don't think they can ... (unless it's perhaps a dictionary of cognitive science, but then I think you might find yourself on the short end of the jargon stick) ... as for trying to use "conscious" as an uncountable noun that names a quasi-object (like "tissue" or "water"), I still don't see the justification ... as far as I can see, consciousness is a processually manifested emergent property - there is nothing resembling "texture" or "fluidity" for you to hang a quasi-object on, thus no justification for using "conscious" as an uncountable noun ... I think this undermines your assignment of a "state of conscious" to things smaller than the process of consciousness as a whole, and thus makes your materialism-leaning philosophy untenable ... but that's just me Wink
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 10:13 am
@Kielicious,
"If one wants to learn more about how brain projects contents of autobiological episodic memory, they'll have to go to the sciences.".................KJ

"when we are discussing things about humanity, we have to take into account the findings of art, religion, philosophy and such disciplines that deal with the higher level functions of a human being which are beyond biology." ....moi

mere priya bhai,
that statement could stand some clarification, as you point out. i could have phrased it more to be in line with yours, such as: if we want to learn more about humanity, we will have to go to religion, philosophy, art and such disciplines which involve the higher functioning of the human being.

i am not saying that you can find any particular truth in these subjects (i.e. religion, art, philosophy) but what i am saying is how can science explain the things we think about and their use as pertains to survival? if it has become a scientific conclusion that art and religion became behavior patterns for the purpose of strengthening formation of groups which would help in survival, then let us suppose that is true; how would philosophy be useful for survival? why would neurons start firing questions like 'is there a god?' and 'what is my purpose?' and 'i feel like dancing' or 'there is a poem stuck like a thorn in my heart and if it doesnt come out i will die?'

you yourself in another post have mentioned that you appreciate the beauty of a sunset-how in the world would that come about from neurons and synapses and hormonal secretions? the brain you are describing would not be doing anything other than trying to survive and reproduce.

i am not saying that homo sapiens are anything special, i believe everything is equal, but i dont want to open up another can of worms by going into that now. but i do agree that it would be interesting to be able to observe cro magnon man or neanderthal. as for the chimps painting, i dont think that constitutes art. maybe it will some day, who knows-

oh, now you make me think of the old ernie kovacs tv show and the guys who used to dress up in gorilla suits and play music....the nairobi trio!

---------- Post added 07-13-2009 at 10:24 PM ----------

KJ-
another quick question. if the immune system sends out the 'infantry' (sorry, forgot the technical terms) to fight invaders dont they retain memory of the experience? cells have to have memory in order to adapt and they do adapt i think...various cells or parts of genes or something. i mean there has to be another type of memory besides that which occurs in the brain.

even in metaphysics it is written that there is a line on the brain for every thought you have and it grows deeper if you persist along the same idea. but that is the memory of a thought perhaps-not necessarily the record of what really happened. it would be the record of our reaction and interpretation of an event rather than the event itself.

however, cellular memory would have to be a true record of whatever happened because trial and error is part of the organism's adaptive functioning. am i mistaken?
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:06 pm
@salima,
salima;77031 wrote:
another quick question. if the immune system sends out the 'infantry' (sorry, forgot the technical terms) to fight invaders dont they retain memory of the experience?


... yes ... and this memory is transferred from mother to child through mother's milk ... so to some degree, human evolution is Lamarckian ... but is this memory "mental"?

Shifting to transplanted organs, to the degree that cognition is a dynamical system that spans the nexus of brain-body-world, it is interesting to wonder what perturbation a transplanted organ could have for the whole cognitive system ... could it actually cause a change in personality? attitude? (if the organ in question contributes to the chemical balance of the individual, why wouldn't it?) ... that said, I am disinclined to think that subjective memories could be transferred from one person to another through the transplant of, say, a heart (as put forth in some of the anecdotes jeeprs provided a link for).
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:25 pm
@paulhanke,
paulhanke;77049 wrote:
... yes ... and this memory is transferred from mother to child through mother's milk ... so to some degree, human evolution is Lamarckian ... but is this memory "mental"?

Shifting to transplanted organs, to the degree that cognition is a dynamical system that spans the nexus of brain-body-world, it is interesting to wonder what perturbation a transplanted organ could have for the whole cognitive system ... could it actually cause a change in personality? attitude? (if the organ in question contributes to the chemical balance of the individual, why wouldn't it?) ... that said, I am disinclined to think that subjective memories could be transferred from one person to another through the transplant of, say, a heart (as put forth in some of the anecdotes jeeprs provided a link for).
If any of it is true it blows your mind, i will have to rethink my beliefs in human experience and it does not help my belief in a soul or the individual "I".Life has the strange habit of destroying your dogmatic opinions.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:38 pm
@Kielicious,
i tend to believe or at least speculate that there is such a thing as cellular memory as well as genetic memory. it is not a memory of thought but of experience and events either within the body alone or impressions made while interacting with the environment and its inhabitants.

as far as transplants, i can see memories of pleasure drinking beer could be carried over to the recipient for example, along with genetic memories of perhaps fears generated by legends among a certain line of ancestors. superstitions run very deep and there must also be cultural memory. i see no reason why these occurrences cant be explained by science in a way that could be conclusively proved. we just dont yet know all that cells and other body components are capable of doing.

but i think if we have reports of remembering events in the past of the donor in the form of thoughts and emotions-i dont know. if emotions are produced by chemicals (hormones) then why not? if there were a cellular memory of releasing adrenaline at the sound of an angry man yelling because it related to an experience of child abuse, wouldnt that be strong enough to carry over to a donor? many more examples i could imagine and suggest. but i think thoughts and mental memories are part of a different process in the brain.

i can bring up incidents from my childhood where i exhinited definite tendencies of the indian culture which i was not aware of and i am sure my mother never spoke of even before i was able to comprehend language because she denied being indian altogether. where else could those attitudes and behaviors have come from? they were totally opposite many culture issues in the society where i was raised. yet they manifested in my personality (long before i was a teen-ager and might have become apt to choose to rebel and behave opposite of visible authority figures.)

and i see these things as being physical processes-no need to go beyond science to explain them. however, if someone claims to remember a past life or the events from the life of an organ doner, i would say that is another territory altogether.

sorry about rambling, but ideas popped up while i was writing and divided my attention. it is my laziness in not wanting to go back and try to paste it all together cohesively. hope there is something in there that makes sense.
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 07:22 am
@Kielicious,
Take some water, a sprinkler, a hose and toss them on the ground and you have a mess. Set them to work, together on a sunny day, and you can produce a rainbow.

It's in this vein that I see the production of consciousness. That yes; the brain and only the brain produces it, but does so through the dynamics of memory, inter-neural communication and biology all working in concert with our particular brain cells.

Hope this isn't too far off the current thought - it just hit me as a good example of how I see it.

Thanks
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 10:36 pm
@xris,
With a whirlpool of activity these past few, and up-coming days, trying to swirl me into an elongated, 'being-drug-ever-closer-into-the-black-hole' clump of biological material, I will strive to keep up. Here, please, I wish to make one last installment on my argument supporting the one new sense of conscious that I use--after which, I simply ask that it be kept in mind, along with contextual setting, when reading me. I have thought about how to go about this for a good while, off and on, actually, because I really want to get it clearly and fully across; and am completely aware of the natural human tendency to be wary of change. I will do my best, as this will be the last of any embedding on this particular point from me.

First of all, I'd like to highlight the idea of collective, non-count nouns. I recall seeing a sticker on the back of a car here in Japan, that had the word 'I' on the top, then the big 'heart' (of I love NY, type thing) and then the singular noun, 'dog.' I got a big kick out of that. This sentence, with this form, communicates the word 'dog' as in material for cusine, beause it has become an uncountable noun by grammatical usage. To have some grapefruit in the fridge, is different from having a grapefruit in the fridge. In this way, the noun 'brain' can have the uncountable condition. Also, all processes are uncountable in English, regardless of form, so the act of 'folding' (as a noun) is uncountable, just as the noun 'thinking' is. For this reason, the noun consciousness is an uncountable noun, and conscious (as is in the sense already used) is uncountable, so, the additional sense which I am using it in, is also uncountable. This is very much due to English grammatical rules.


In the topic of this thread, we have the words mind, brain, and consciousness, and in the discussion, we have been looking at them and the connections/relationships that such evidence--in whatever degrees. I have used the word conscious--in adjective form--in its usual sense (as found in any good dictionary), but have also used it in another, additional sense, in the noun and adjective form, that will not be found in any dictionary (that I know of). Conscious does have the noun form. Due to the etymological history of the word conscious, the English language has recieved it in the adjective form. It is in this way comparable to the likes of precious, gregarious, luscious, and so on. For this reason, in that the recieved base had been of the adjective form itself, it became necessary to add the noun forming suffix, '~ness,' to have a noun form; thus, consciousness (which is how all words of this class form nouns, generally).

In that the word conscious modifies as a state or condition of 'being aware, knowing, and being aware of and knowing feelings,' and (by rule of being an adjective form) requires the described noun (a conscious state, he was conscious during the surgery), the noun form renders the descriptive modifier itself, a noun. It therefore makes no sense linguistically, at all, to say, 'the concious consciousness,' or 'consciousness is conscious.' What this means, then, is that the noun 'consciousness' is not a concrete noun--like flesh, brain, or water--but a condition or state (abstract noun); just as the adjective form informs us of.

'Consciousness,' in turn, has come to have a fairly set definition/description which, when checking around, will always carry the factors of having a state of conscious, a state of reportable awareness (such as in normal, undisturbed waking life) of internal sensation, emotion, volition, or thought, as well as of perception of externally sourced sensory input. (and of course some refinement is offered by the disciplines of philosophy and neuroscience) However, as is refined by present knowledge, consciousness is a 'final' result (with some gradation) of not only the processes of a single individual brain (the 'taken-as-a-whole,' single unit), brain (the separable sub-units [neurons, neuronal clusters, structures, gyri, etc.] which make up a brain), but the entire span of activity and processes which is that organ across evolutionary time and species and individuals.

Due to there having been no word, naturally, in the English language to deal with this nuerological matter fully comprehensively, as it slowly emerged into our knowledge and recognition, the negative form was put to use for any state or condition, or process, which was not full blown consciousness ('the last punch left him in a state of unconsciousness', 'she was not uncounscious during surgery'). Since the 'un' negative prefix tends to communicate absolute lack of (unknown is diametrically opposite to known), a recent occasional use of the 'non-' negative can be found. As has been pointed out by some, this whole negative thing is strange (akin to saying that my sons are 'halves' rather than a more correct term to describe being a combination of two largely different genetical family linages).

Therefore, to resolve this I have offered, and use, the word 'conscious,' in noun form, with the sense of identifying (that is pointing to a referent) a state, condition and/or process that is especially peculiar to, and is an identifying nature of, the make-up of, and the entirety of a particular organ--(the) brain. The benefits are that we no longer need to identify an existing process, state, or condition by opposing it to a certain level which same process, state, or condition results in (as understood in the seen to be highest state/process/condition of that organ across the whole sweep of its existence [H. spaien]). (the brain is in some state of conscious when we are asleep, as when we are awake, and that lazy cat, slouching around outside the kitchen door, just waiting for the next feeding time, is conscious, as my son who is slouched in front of the X-box connected TV is conscious)

The reason 'cognition' and 'cognitive' would not work as well is because of the root form's (cognition) being more deeply involved in, and dependent on, the base of knowing a matter. Not all states, processes, and conditions of (a) brain will be cognized (thus awareness to the state of consciousness so as to be reportable or more directly observed through the actions of a second or third party), thus not a matter of the cognition domain; yet a process, state, condition is there, something is being done, therefore it is a matter of a state of conscious (a member of the whole which makes consciousness).

The reason 'mind' would not work as well, is because much is happening in the organ than what makes (or determines) the general definition/description for the word mind--yet there is neuronal process, state, and condition, thus there is a state of conscious . . . which state, when fully developed and integrated, leads to that level we consider consciousness but which, alone and by itself is not a part of mind by very definition/description of that word, 'mind'.

Therefore, in summary, brain--an organ of biological systems as we see, experience, and know of in nature presently and from evidence of fossils, etc.--has/is of a condition, state, and process which is that of what can better be named as conscious. Each individual creature's brain represents a conscious state as the separable portions of brain have conscious states. The evolutionary progression which has led to the organ that the H. sapien has, has provided a development which has led to this certain level of, or degree of, conscious state which we (by definition) term consciousness. To not be in the particular state which we can name consciousness, however, is not to have no state of conscious at all, for the whole state, condition, process is one large continuum among creatures and species in time. Conscious, therefore, sufficiently addresses the knowledge of the conditions, states, and processes that has been gathered to date, of the working organ we have named the brain, and the elements of if which are identified by the uncountable noun, brain. I encourage all to consider it. (as language is fluid, and new words and/or senses come up all along [even the sense of conscious of old, is no longer used...we never hear the likes of 'To be a friend and to be conscious are terms equivalent. [South; serm. 1664; I.394]]
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 01:16 pm
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;78066 wrote:
... the one new sense of conscious that I use--after which, I simply ask that it be kept in mind, along with contextual setting,


... I think I'm past trying to suggest alternative words/concepts ... now that I (think I) really get the gist of what you're trying to say, the new question is whether or not what you are trying to say is isomorphic with reality ...

KaseiJin;78066 wrote:
Also, all processes are uncountable in English, regardless of form, so the act of 'folding' (as a noun) is uncountable, just as the noun 'thinking' is.


... are they? ... "folding" as a noun refers to the process of folding or an instance of that process ... there is no sense in which it is "uncountable" along the lines of "tissue" or "water" ... therefore, you cannot attribute the properties of uncountable nouns to "folding" ... in fact, you probably would not do so yourself ... take "thinking" ... it is also a process that "brain does" ... does that mean that individual neurons each intrinsically have a "state of thought"? ... does that mean that the neurons in a cockroach's brain each intrinsically have a "state of thought" even though there is nary a "thinking" going on in that brain?

KaseiJin;78066 wrote:
Each individual creature's brain represents a conscious state as the separable portions of brain have conscious states.


... and it is this assertion of that separable portions of brain have intrinsic "states of conscious" that I disagree with ... it seems to me that you are trying to reintroduce the Cartesian concept of conscious as a substance so that you can divide it up into little pieces with each piece still exhibiting all of the properties of conscious ... but doesn't that lead to some bizarre implications? ... for example, you stated that each individual neuron has a "state of conscious" ... but why stop there? - why not say that each individual protein and each individual DNA strand, etc., also have a "state of conscious? ... or why start with consciousness? - why not begin with "cityness"? ... "cityness" names the process of human social organization as large as Tokyo ... but if you separate a city into neighborhoods and persons, each neighborhood and even each person still has a "state of city" ... but not all people live in cities ... some live in rural areas, and others are wise hermits living on mountain tops ... and even though rural areas and mountain tops do not exhibit "cityness", each of the people in these situations still intrinsically has a "state of city" ... and in fact, since each of these people is made up of cells, each cell intrinsically has a "state of city" ... and since these cells are like the cells of a cockroach, each cell in a cockroach also has a "state of city" ... and so on ... doesn't that sound at all a bit unreal?

Let's try one last angle ... consider a CPU, cache, memory, disk, etc., arranged in a von Neumann architecture ... what a von Neumann architecture does is von Neumann computing ... does that mean that every transistor in every chip in this system each intrinsically has a "state of von Neumann computation"? ... does that also mean that the transistors in my pocket radio each intrinsically have a "state of von Neumann computation" even though my pocket radio isn't anything like a von Neumann architecture?
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 07:41 am
@salima,
In appreciation of your presentation, paulhanke, I have (as you will have likely become aware of at the point of reading this) PMed a response; and hope here, that you will find room to accept my choice of medium for that. (at least at the moment)

salima;73556 wrote:

no, i think it shouldnt be limited to linguistically realized.
(second paragraph)

So getting back firstly with this point, before going on to respond to the A.1, 2, sections of jeeprs #98 (p 10).

OK, salima chan. Let's then hold a 'thought' as a both a language matter and a non-language matter. I suggest we leave it at the projected-to-consciousness level regardless of whether it has memory traces. (that means that even a thought that had come to mind, but is then forgotten [leaving no long-term memory], is considered to have been a thought)

I do think this will demand that while an initial emotion projected to consciousness would not be considered a thought, having acknowledged it, had thoughts about it, or memories recalled due to it, etc., these will be thoughts--not the raw emotion projected. Thus, an urge to do something is not a thought, and any physical reaction due to sensory input which is not projected to consciousness level, is not due to a thought.

To hear a noise is not a thought, and to see an image is not a thought, etc. (sensory input acknowledgment) To imagine a scene, without language, is a thought--even if it involves action by the imagined participants.

I think that pretty much sums it up. I apologize for taking so long to get back to that.
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 09:50 am
@Kielicious,
"OK, salima chan. Let's then hold a 'thought' as a both a language matter and a non-language matter. I suggest we leave it at the projected-to-consciousness level regardless of whether it has memory traces. (that means that even a thought that had come to mind, but is then forgotten [leaving no long-term memory], is considered to have been a thought)
I do think this will demand that while an initial emotion projected to consciousness would not be considered a thought, having acknowledged it, had thoughts about it, or memories recalled due to it, etc., these will be thoughts--not the raw emotion projected. Thus, an urge to do something is not a thought, and any physical reaction due to sensory input which is not projected to consciousness level, is not due to a thought.
To hear a noise is not a thought, and to see an image is not a thought, etc. (sensory input acknowledgment) To imagine a scene, without language, is a thought--even if it involves action by the imagined participants.
I think that pretty much sums it up. I apologize for taking so long to get back to that.".....KJ

no problem-sounds good to me, bhaiyya.
0 Replies
 
gen phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 08:46 pm
@Kielicious,
actuality is processed through the senses, specialized neurons carry the charge up to the brain that is filled with hormones, neurotransmitters, vitamins and minerals of different levels. the brain has two hemispheres and a connection between the hemispheres. in terms of consciousness, all the sections of the brain, body and sensory organs are part of consciousness. many chemicals act as modulators for consciousness. consciousness is alot different on alcohol than it is sober, this is due to its CNS depressent activities and the slowing down of the prefrontal cortex which is a center for inhibitions, personality, movement and so on. the hippocampus is the main center for short term memory. this highly complex corroboration that is the body meets at a routing destination called the claustrum. francis crick hypothesized on the possibility of the claustrum being the main affect of consciousness. i would take the term "supervene" as a placeholder.
ValueRanger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 09:08 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;73566 wrote:
E=mc2 shows that matter is a form of energy


Although, there are still many mysteries regarding matter...

Do you think data (particle) is contained by the wave set, or vice-versa?
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 07:15 am
@jeeprs,
In picking back up here, towards answering to a number of matters, I will continue a response to jeeprs' #98 on page 10, touching on some matters raised by salima, paulhanke, and then presenting points leading to the conclusion of the thread concern. I will touch on my on-going response to jeeprs' post herein.


I will provide outline-like points (as I have in my #116) so as to keep an orderly response.


jeeprs;72987 wrote:
(A.1.)Materialism is the belief that everything is reducible to matter. So of course the materialist view is that mind is a byproduct of the brain (=consciousness is biological). The brain is something you can examine. In the materialist, or naturalist, view, reality is what you examine through the microscope and the telescope.



Be it called materialism, physicalism, or naturalism, I really don't give much concern to, but what I do not see, is that my understanding is anything that can more accurately be called scientism, either. That said, the evidence which we have to look at, in regards what brain is, what mind is, what conscious activity, process is, and then, what consciousness is, automatically demands that we give consideration to all of the above.

We might find it more productive to distinguish between something's being an observable thing (matter), an indirectly observable thing (energy) on the one hand, and something's being reducible, on the other hand. Looking at the evidence will require that we observe (look, watch, experience, and test) what we can, in nature--because that is our field of immediate experience in the first instance historically (evolution and evidences for it). For this reason, while the more advanced tools resulting from scientific methodologically discovered knowledge are useful and used, more simply tools are also used, and simple reason (the ole noggn') is a good one. Part A.1., therefore opens on setting up a good stage upon which to act.


jeeprs wrote:
(A.2.) And you can surely demonstrate that without the brain, no consciousness exists, so it seems to have empirical support. Whack somebody on the head, no consciousness. Do a split-brain operation, observe a patient with damage to this or that part of the brain, and correlate the effect on their consciousness. It is quite simple.


Here it will surely be more positive, and productive-in-outcome, to look at the details of why such truths stand. Of course, we will have to bear in mind the essential definition of consciousness that we are using. This should be done properly, and it might be good to do it first, but I think I'll choose to spread it out a bit. In doing so, it will become clear enough that as regards consciousness, the following assertion has no connection, nor analogous power at all.


jeeprs wrote:
(2.)But then, with a TV turned off, there is no television show, either. Yet TV shows are not produced by the television, they are only transmitted by it. Take out the blue gun, for example, and the colours will not display properly. Unplug the television and you will see nothing.
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Aug, 2009 09:48 pm
@jeeprs,
I am quite certain that I have previously mentioned in passing (and don't have time to run it down at present) that it might be good to go into this from the motor function angle firstly; and I do intend to do so, but have come to sense that perhaps a little on the cellular level might be benefical at first.

All organs and tissues (as in highlighting variance of tissue types) of the body are composed of cells (eukaryotic here)--as can be said of most all biological forms. Of the some 200 distinct kinds of cells that can be identified in the body in terms of differences in structure and function, there is some underlying similarity, of course, and overlap. The broad types of function that they can all be boiled down into will be (1) muscle cells, (2) nerve cells, (3) epithelial cells, and (4) connective tissue cells. Within these four broad functional catagories, several cell types will be performing variations of the specialized function. We are interested in catagory two.

Neurons do not make the largest group within the nerve cell class (~10% only), but are the unquestionably major 'star support role' holders, for sure; we could say that the real 'stars of the show' are the synapses. Neurons have one major difference from glia cells in that they project--in fact, this is what distinguishes them from all other cells.

We can take a sample of tissue from the epidermis, the spleen, or a skeletal muscle, and will find that they too signal, work through diffusion, and have channel pores, and endocytosis and exocytosis, and so on, but they do not have axons, nor do they communicate in such fashion. In short, we can say that neurons 'project' whereas other cells do not, which is why we find the likes of:

[indent]
Neuroanatomy--Text and Atlas; pp 382, 83 wrote:
The hippocampal formation recieves its major input from a portion of the limbic asssociation cortex termed the entorhinal cortex. This region, located on the parahippocampal gyrus adjacent to the hippocampal formation, collects information from other parts of the limbic association cortex (perirhinal and parahippocampal cortex) as well as from other association areas. Extensive processing of information occurs within the hippocampal formation, within a prominent serial circuit, in whic information is projected in sequential steps. There is also a parallel circuit, in which information from entorhinal cortex projects directly to each hippocampal component. {bold and underline mine}
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Also, to help with understanding of a matter now set aside, it is for this reason that neuron cell bodies (clusters, nuclei, etc.) can be said to have conscious (in the newer, additional sense, please note), whereas a skeletal muscle, the spleen, or the entire upper epidermis does not. It is by the integrator-like quality and degree of informaiton processing that these structures have, that makes the difference.

Putting most detail of the several groupings of neuron types aside, it might be good to simply point out that we have, basically, unipolar, bipolar, and multipolar builds, and projection neurons, and interneurons (which do project, but simply only in the immediate neighborhood [often as inhibitory]). I will make one more post on neuron cells, to keep posts smaller, before going into motor things. Please do bear with my slowness in posting.
 

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