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Consciousness is a Biological Problem

 
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:13 pm
@richrf,
richrf;93109 wrote:
As I view it, physical laws, as they are perceived during any period of time, are a manifestation of consciousness
And this perspective is an unadulterated matter of faith. Therefore everything that follows is as well, including your malignant view of other sciences. So it's hard to take your view as informed and critical since you harbor this a priori prejudice.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:22 pm
@Kielicious,
Pathfinder wrote:
Some 'fill in the blank with the word that will make u comfortable" , I will say mysterious force, drives that sperm to accomplish its task.


Sperm are cells, cells with even a nucleus. Like many cells, they perform a function. The function of sperm cells is to combine with egg cells to fertilize and begin the creation of a diploid.

If you think sperm cells are driven by a "mysterious force", then you must find every cell that performs a function to be driven by a "mysterious force". The cells that contribute to the contraction of your heart, the cells that contribute to your sense of touch, swallowing, seeing, smelling, digestion etc. Every cell in your body, hell, a good chunk of cells on earth, are performing functions. There's nothing unique about sperm cells in this regard.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:23 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;93142 wrote:
And this perspective is an unadulterated matter of faith.


As I might suggest is your perspective. You firmly believe in materialism and determinism. Your faith seems to be equal to the faith of any religious person I have ever come across.

As for my point of view, it is not firmly held. It is a belief and is certainly subject to change and changes quite often. I was a determinist/materialist in my youth. It is a very comfortable feeling. I jettisoned that idea when I found it no longer viable or useful to explain what I was observing in life. People change their perspectives all the time.

Rich

---------- Post added 09-23-2009 at 06:29 PM ----------

Zetherin;93145 wrote:
Sperm are cells, cells with even a nucleus. Like many cells, they perform a function. The function of sperm cells is to combine with egg cells to fertilize and begin the creation of a diploid.

If you think sperm cells are driven by a "mysterious force", then you must find every cell that performs a function to be driven by a "mysterious force". The cells that contribute to the contraction of your heart, the cells that contribute to your sense of touch, swallowing, seeing, smelling, digestion etc. Every cell in your body, hell, a good chunk of cells on earth, are performing functions. There's nothing unique about sperm cells in this regard.


The force is consciousness that is putting the whole work together. It is the same consciousness that creates buildings, sculptures, laboratories, and all of the other things we see in our every day life. It is pretty nice to see what consciousness can do when it puts its mind to it. Give your consciousness some credit for all that it has done. I certainly love my consciousness.

Rich
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:33 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93145 wrote:
Sperm are cells, cells with even a nucleus. Like many cells, they perform a function. The function of sperm cells is to combine with egg cells to fertilize and begin the creation of a diploid.

If you think sperm cells are driven by a "mysterious force", then you must find every cell that performs a function to be driven by a "mysterious force". The cells that contribute to the contraction of your heart, the cells that contribute to your sense of touch, swallowing, seeing, smelling, digestion etc. Every cell in your body, hell, a good chunk of cells on earth, are performing functions. There's nothing unique about sperm cells in this regard.


Zeth, what exactly do you mean when you say, " the function of" ??? What causes them to desire or strive to perform this function?
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:36 pm
@Kielicious,
richrf wrote:
The force is consciousness that is putting the whole work together. It is pretty nice to see what consciousness can do when it puts its mind to it. Give your consciousness some credit for all that it has done. I certainly love my consciousness.


Sperm cells are not conscious as we would call a human conscious. They are alive, no doubt, but not conscious as we know it. Consciousness comes after the fact and is a synergy, a complex interwoven phenomenon most likely dealing with the brain.

Quote:
It is the same consciousness that creates buildings, sculptures, laboratories, and all of the other things we see in our every day life.


People build buildings, sculptures, and laboratories. So unless you're using consciousness as a synonym for "people", I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

Pathfinder wrote:
Zeth, what exactly do you mean when you say, " the function of" ??? What causes them to desire or strive to perform this function?


They are just that way. Just like a computer program can perform a series of functions, so too do cells. There is no striving or desiring, just as there is no striving or desiring of computer programs. They perform their function. That's it.

You're essentially asking me who's the engineer, the artificer/artifice relationship, and I don't feel like going there with you.
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:42 pm
@Kielicious,
Zeth you said "They are just that way. Just like a computer program can perform a series of functions, so too do cells. There is no striving or desiring, just as there is no striving or desiring of computer programs. They perform their function. That's it.

You're essentially asking me who's the engineer, the artificer/artifice relationship, and I don't feel like going there with you."

I am not sure what the heck you are saying here my friend. You dont have to go there but you know what you are avoiding just by saying that. Obviously the computer cannot do anything without the programmer having done his job.

Your answer to the question is " they just do that" . Im sorry but thats just not even worth going any farther with.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:45 pm
@Kielicious,
Pathfinder wrote:
You dont have to go there but you know what you are avoiding just by saying that.


All too well, my friend, all too well!

Oh, wait, I'll make you happy:

There is a God!
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:46 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93151 wrote:
Sperm cells are not conscious as we would call a human conscious. They are alive, no doubt, but not conscious as we know it. Consciousness comes after the fact and is a synergy, a complex interwoven phenomenon most likely dealing with the brain.


When you restate your faith as evidence, it really does sound the same as one of religious faith.

In any case, consciousness has been defined as awareness and who knows whether or not a sperm is aware. I certainly don't.



Zetherin;93151 wrote:
People build buildings, sculptures, and laboratories. So unless you're using consciousness as a synonym for "people", I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.


Consciousness is what is making all the decisions and the impetus behind the movement of the physical being. It evolved over millions of years and is now doing all those things that you do every day. Observe your consciousness at work. It is lots of fun and darn interesting. Also, while you are at it, you may want to congratulate yourself on how much your own consciousness can accomplish.

Zetherin;93151 wrote:
They are just that way. Just like a computer program can perform a series of functions, so too do cells. There is no striving or desiring, just as there is no striving or desiring of computer programs. They perform their function. That's it.


That function that they are performing is the work that is courtesy of the consciousness of those who designed it. Nice job I would say.

Zetherin;93151 wrote:
You're essentially asking me who's the engineer, the artificer/artifice relationship, and I don't feel like going there with you.


That's fine. It is where I am going. You can tag along or go somewhere else.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:48 pm
@richrf,
richrf;93146 wrote:
As I might suggest is your perspective.
The difference is that my perspective can be objectively corroborated.

richrf;93146 wrote:
You firmly believe in materialism and determinism.
Bullshit, I believe nothing of the sort.

You're SO willing to cast aspersions at other perspectives, yet so unwilling to listen to them, that in all our interactions here you've still done me the disservice of throwing me into some box of yours. You don't understand me any better than you understand quantum physics -- i.e. not at all.
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:48 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;93152 wrote:
Your answer to the question is " they just do that" . Im sorry but thats just not even worth going any farther with.


Well, there are physicists and philosophers who do not mind going there, and I enjoy walking alongside of them to see what they find.

Rich

---------- Post added 09-23-2009 at 06:51 PM ----------

Aedes;93156 wrote:
The difference is that my perspective can be objectively corroborated.


No more so than people of faith just gather around people of the same faith and corroborate each others beliefs. It is consoling but not very interesting.

Zetherin;93151 wrote:
Bullshit, I believe nothing of the sort.


Believe what you want to believe, as long as we all recognize that it is a belief. Now, you felt that I had faith and I responded it is no different (actually less so) than yours. All your consciousness needs to do at this point is to become aware of it.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:53 pm
@Kielicious,
richrf wrote:
Observe your consciousness at work


That's impossible. Things cannot observe themselves.

Quote:
That function that they are performing is the work that is courtesy of the consciousness of those who designed it. Nice job I would say.


So there's some sort of ethereal consciousness which 'programs' each and every cell to perform a function? Anyone else you know of share this fantastical opinion?

Quote:
Also, while you are at it, you may want to congratulate yourself on how much your own consciousness can accomplish.


Congratulating myself for no reason is a bit arrogant, isn't it?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:55 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93159 wrote:
That's impossible. Things cannot observe themselves.


I observe my consciousness all the time. I am the only one who can. Maybe you can become aware of your own consciousness. It is that which is causing you to post on the forum.

Zetherin;93151 wrote:
So there's some sort of ethereal consciousness which 'programs' each and every cell to perform a function? Anyone else you know of share this fantastical opinion?


It is what Rupert Sheldrake calls a morphic field.

Zetherin;93151 wrote:
Congratulating myself for no reason is a bit arrogant, isn't it?


If you find it arrogant, then don't.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:05 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93153 wrote:
All too well, my friend, all too well!

Oh, wait, I'll make you happy:

There is a God!


I have no idea what this has to do with this topic .

If you are intimating that I am a theist, you are wrong, I am an atheist.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:11 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;93164 wrote:
I have no idea what this has to do with this topic .

If you are intimating that I am a theist, you are wrong, I am an atheist.


But you believe, like rich, that there's an engineer (call it what you want, force, god) that is driving sperm cells to fertilization?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:13 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93168 wrote:
But you believe, like rich, that there's an engineer (call it what you want, force, god) that is driving sperm cells to fertilization?


There is a force. There has to be a force, or do you think it moving without force?

Rich
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:20 pm
@richrf,
richrf;93169 wrote:
There is a force. There has to be a force, or do you think it moving without force?

Rich


This kind of force: Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is, a Newtonian, scientific interpretation of force.

But no ethereal engineering consciousness'.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:28 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93171 wrote:
This kind of force: Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is, a Newtonian, scientific interpretation of force.

But no ethereal engineering consciousness'.


That force is consciousness. Nothing magical. It has been known to scientists for centuries. I'm just helping you out a bit so that you understand that force a bit better.

It is that which is causing the collapse of the wave function - or in practical terms, it is creating. Listen, if you don't want to give your consciousness a pat on the back, I will. Pat, pat, pat.

Rich
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:32 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;93168 wrote:
But you believe, like rich, that there's an engineer (call it what you want, force, god) that is driving sperm cells to fertilization?



And what do you think causes the sperm cell to seek the egg? you cannot simply say that is just the way it is. Something is causing the sperm cell to seek the egg. What is it?
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:43 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;93174 wrote:
And what do you think causes the sperm cell to seek the egg? you cannot simply say that is just the way it is. Something is causing the sperm cell to seek the egg. What is it?


You realize if I give you an answer you'll most likely just ask what is causing that, too, right? It's infinite regress, as was noted pages and pages ago. But, hell, here I go.

Sticking a penis in a vagina and ejaculating in a vagina is causing the sperm to seek the egg. After the sperm are ejaculated from the testes they begin performing their function - their function being to find an egg to fertilize. While inside a vagina, they have a good chance of finding an egg (depending on menstrual cycle, etc.). If you ejaculate into a paper towel you'll realize you're not impregnating anyone. This is because you're denying the sperm cells from performing their function. The cause of the sperm cell to want to function is the fact that it's alive and in order to survive it has to join with an egg cell to create a diploid. There's no more a mysterious force here than with the reason why we breath.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:54 pm
@Kielicious,
"their function being to find an egg to fertilize"


What gives them this function? Call it infinite whatever.... it is the question that bgegs to be answereed Zeth.

you make it sound so simple, the sperm just does it! But why does the sperm perform this function, where does it get its programming? What causes it to do this? How do I ask the question so that it becomes valid?

you say the sperms function is to seek the egg? What do you mean "the sperms function is to...?" That is not an answer. And just because the answer involves infinite regression doesnt mean that it doesnt deserve to be asked or answered.
0 Replies
 
 

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