The idea that the Jews are God's chosen people?

@Solace,

Solace wrote:

The insinuation here is that jews can be rehabilitated, but not arabs...

Lets give you an example

A terrorist comes to the US from Saudi Arabia and the US catches him and puts him in jail. Fair no?

An American Citizen wants to go to Saudi Arabia to commit a terrorist act and the American boarder guard catches him and puts him in jail. Fair no?

One is an act of war against Americans, the other is an internal issue. It is not the American's responsibility to reform one Saudi Terrorist. It is their job to send a message to other "would be" terrorists to be careful and not try anything on American soil. But it is their responsibility to reform their own citizens.

And both Elon Moreh and Kedumim are jewish settlements that did not displace any arabs.

Elon Moreh is next to the Arab city of Shehem. And Kedumim is in the Shomron Valley. The only place I know of where there is constant struggle and Jewish infiltration is Hevron.

Since the 1929 Massacre when all of the jews were killed by there Arabs, Hevron has been vacant of a Jewish Presence. There used to be a Hospital there where Arabs would go and get free treatment, but they hung the hospital staff out the window by their intestines. Recently Jews have begun buying houses again and struggling to get a presence back in Hevron. Hevron is the place where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are buried. And Shehem is the place where Joseph is burried.

1 Reply

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Quote:

One is an act of war against Americans, the other is an internal issue. It is not the American's responsibility to reform one Saudi Terrorist. It is their job to send a message to other "would be" terrorists to be careful and not try anything on American soil. But it is their responsibility to reform their own citizens.

The difference is that when you say that Jewish terrorists can be reformed but Arab terrorists should be put to death, you're talking about citizens of Israel in both cases. You're essentially saying that certain citizens deserve to die because of their race/religion, but other citizens should get off easier for the exact same sort of crime.

Look, I'm not Jewish and I'm not living in Israel, so I'm not going to judge, but as long as the Palestinians are considered citizens of Israel then they deserve the same rights as any other citizen. I won't argue that they might very well deserve death for their crimes, but if they do then so do Jewish terrorists. Otherwise the imbalance that characterizes Israeli society is going to continue unchecked.

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

The difference is that when you say that Jewish terrorists can be reformed but Arab terrorists should be put to death, you're talking about citizens of Israel in both cases.

Palestinians (By definition) are not citizens of Israel. They refused to receive citizenship and refuse to recognize the state. They made a new state and called it Palestine and when they had the option to vote Hammas (more extremist) and PLO (less extremist) they voted 70% Hammas.

But I more clearly generalized Arabs. Because Arabs are a nation and Jews are a nation. They are two seperate nations. When an Arab is living in the Jewish nation, they should not try and kill jews. The best example of a Jewish Terrorist was Baruch Goldstein. Born in New-York and received his degree in Medicine at the Albert-Einstein College of Medicine. He was a doctor in the Army and received two citations for his fine medical work and was recommended for major. He lived in the city of Hevron and witnessed many attacks and was the Doctor on call there. Example: He witnessed a 2 year old in a stroller get shot by an arab sniper in the Avraham Aveinu neighborhood.

He snapped. He was a father and Husband but he took his rifle and went and murdered 29 arabs at prayer and was killed afterwords.

The problem is that this is not a nation of individuals and we cannot take justice in our own hands. This is something that all of the Rabbis say. We have an Army and all things should be done on a national level.
Goldstein was killed.

When Arabs kidnap jews they kill them. When they capture them, they send them back in pieces.

Ron Arad has been missing for over 8 years. His wife cannot remarry because there is no proof that he is alive or dead.

Jonathan Pollard, a Jewish CIA agent, warned Israel about the incoming Iraqi missiles. USA had the information and refused to give it to Israel. Pollard was charged with releasing classified information and has been in Jail for over 25 years.

This is a Jewish nation. It is not a multinational nation. It is not America or Canada. Here, Arabs are guests. They are here because the quality of life for them is higher than all of their Arab countries. If they don't like it, they can go to one of their other 22 Arab countries.

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Well I'm glad you clarified this then. Honestly, and I know people won't like me saying this, but oh well, but Israel needs to establish who exactly is and who isn't Israeli citizens. And the ones who aren't need to be forced out of the country. Because as long as Israel remains a state that is divided, these attacks are going to continue in the same manner. People cannot and will not peacefully cohabit a country while one group is considered by the state to be citizens and another group isn't, or even while one group considers themselves citizens and another group doesn't. Automatically the condition of the population becomes imbalanced and conflict is inevitable.

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

Well I'm glad you clarified this then. Honestly, and I know people won't like me saying this, but oh well, but Israel needs to establish who exactly is and who isn't Israeli citizens. And the ones who aren't need to be forced out of the country. Because as long as Israel remains a state that is divided, these attacks are going to continue in the same manner. People cannot and will not peacefully cohabit a country while one group is considered by the state to be citizens and another group isn't, or even while one group considers themselves citizens and another group doesn't. Automatically the condition of the population becomes imbalanced and conflict is inevitable.

That is what the Kahanists say and they are considered extremists :perplexed:
The problem is, that lately some of the terrorist attacks were made by Arabs that are considered Israeli. (It is more or less defined who is who)

My only conclusion is that it is a very messy situation and no clear solution exists. Kicking them out is definitely a clear solution, and if it would end this conflict and people would stop dying then I would think it would be worth it. But try explaining that to the Government and try explaining that to the UN.

Thanks for the Chat though.

1 Reply

@Binyamin Tsadik,

I still do not understand how the issue of treating Arab and Jewish terrorists differently is not a double standard. Even if the US employs a double standard in such cases, that's hardly justification for the double standard.

You mention Goldstein, the Jewish terrorist. I understand that he "snapped", but people do not murder thirty other people without a reason - Arabs included. The Arabs have witnessed foreign powers taking their land, and then foreigners come to their land to claim it as their own. To say that Jews have not displaced Arabs is ahistorical.

You say that a solution to the current problems is to expel the Arabs from Israel. This is no solution. This so called "solution" will only swell the already immense displaced Arab population in the area and cultivate greater hatred of Israel. And not just Arab hatred of Israeli, but to expel a whole people based on race will anger many non-Arabs as well. And rightly so.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Thomas, are you trying to get an Israelite to agree with you on an internet forum that his people are not entitled to the land they displaced the Arabs from ? Funny... Sisyphus would pity you.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I still do not understand how the issue of treating Arab and Jewish terrorists differently is not a double standard. Even if the US employs a double standard in such cases, that's hardly justification for the double standard.

You mention Goldstein, the Jewish terrorist. I understand that he "snapped", but people do not murder thirty other people without a reason - Arabs included. The Arabs have witnessed foreign powers taking their land, and then foreigners come to their land to claim it as their own. To say that Jews have not displaced Arabs is ahistorical.

You say that a solution to the current problems is to expel the Arabs from Israel. This is no solution. This so called "solution" will only swell the already immense displaced Arab population in the area and cultivate greater hatred of Israel. And not just Arab hatred of Israeli, but to expel a whole people based on race will anger many non-Arabs as well. And rightly so.

I was not condoning the displacement, but saving lives is more important than hatred in my oppinion

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Right, you denied that some Arabs have been displaced by Jews in the area. In reality, Arabs have been displaced.

Of course saving lives is more important than hatred. Hatred will increase the number killed, will increase the violence. This is why expelling Arabs is a very dangerous solution, and hardly a solution at all. It also seems that the double standard, the difference in treatment for Arab and Jewish militants, only exacerbates the tension in the region.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Right, you denied that some Arabs have been displaced by Jews in the area. In reality, Arabs have been displaced.

Of course saving lives is more important than hatred. Hatred will increase the number killed, will increase the violence. This is why expelling Arabs is a very dangerous solution, and hardly a solution at all. It also seems that the double standard, the difference in treatment for Arab and Jewish militants, only exacerbates the tension in the region.

Correct about the difference in treatment. Arabs kill Jewish prisoners, so Jews should also kill Arab prisoners. Seems fair to me. :a-ok:

(And Arabs were never ever ever ever displaced. Maybe they should be but it has yet to EVER happen)

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Correct about the difference in treatment. Arabs kill Jewish prisoners, so Jews should also kill Arab prisoners. Seems fair to me. :a-ok:

(And Arabs were never ever ever ever displaced. Maybe they should be but it has yet to EVER happen)

Such prejudice and objectification and dehumanisation of others leads to holocausts, as history has shown. Opinions like that are part of the problem. Opinions you express about saving others being more important than hatred are part of the solution. On which side of the fence do you actually reside, Binny The Orthodox?

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@Robert Drane,

Robert Drane wrote:

Such prejudice and objectification and dehumanisation of others leads to holocausts, as history has shown. Opinions like that are part of the problem. Opinions you express about helping others being more important than hatred are part of the solution. On which side of the fence do you actually reside, Binny The Orthodox?

What prejudice? I'm talking about executing murderers. Already been judged brother. Prejudice implies that I judge them before i know what they are. After I know what they are then it's not prejudice is it?:a-ok:

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

None of it is "fair", as you suggest, Binny. Innocent people dying for the agendas of murderers should be lamented. I don't hear you weeping for the world, but I do hear you swirling around in the deadly cycle of venal logic that has led to these situations in the first place.

Neither side should pretend that there is a transcendent motive for what they do - that leads to murder as surely as ideology causes people to die. For people to play this game that transcendent beliefs justify everything they do is an affront to billions of other people in the world who also happen to believe in God. Arabs have been displaced. Jews have been murdered. But because we're told this conflict is apprently taking place in the skies above the earth, we're all supposed to sit back and accept violence that, in all other aspects of human life, we deprecate. We're supposed to bow to HUGE, HISTORICAL events as they are played out before our eyes, support them unconditionally and never question the motives of people who have been historically afflicted. Why would anyone who truly wants to do God's will bow to such idolatry? Why would those people who actually fear God rather than making him after their own image want to spend their lives treading carefully on the eggshells of other humans, just because they constantly choose to take offence?

When all things are resolved, when the restitution of all things occurs, we will no longer care who was "right", and it won't be our place to judge anyway.

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@Robert Drane,

Robert Drane wrote:

None of it is "fair", as you suggest, Binny. Innocent people dying for the agendas of murderers should be lamented. I don't hear you weeping for the world, but I do hear you swirling around in the deadly cycle of venal logic that has led to these situations in the first place.

Neither side should pretend that there is a transcendent motive for what they do - that leads to murder as surely as ideology causes people to die. For people to play this game that transcendent beliefs justify everything they do is an affront to billions of other people in the world who also happen to believe in God. Arabs have been displaced. Jews have been murdered. But because we're told this conflict is apprently taking place in the skies above the earth, we're all supposed to sit back and accept violence that, in all other aspects of human life, we deprecate. We're supposed to bow to HUGE, HISTORICAL events as they are played out before our eyes, support them unconditionally and never question the motives of people who have been historically afflicted. Why would anyone who truly wants to do God's will bow to such idolatry? Why would those people who actually fear God rather than making him after their own image want to spend their lives treading carefully on the eggshells of other humans, just because they constantly choose to take offence?

When all things are resolved, when the restitution of all things occurs, we will no longer care who was "right", and it won't be our place to judge anyway.

What are you preaching about!?

I know what is right. Someone comes to kill me and my family and my entire country, kill him. Justice. If I don't kill him, then all will know that there are no concequences and that they can freely come and kill me and my family.

It's you that's living in the sky. Come down to earth and see the REAL problem that is happening here. REAL problems need REAL solutions not flower talk :flowers: and luvy doviness. The Arabs will not be satisfied with anything but the end to a Jewish state. They've attacked several times in the past and will continue to do so in the future. In fact, Islam will not be satisfied with anything less that conquering the world. When Europe defeated them 400 years ago they said, "Today you defeated us from without, tomorrow we will defeat you from within."

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

If someone came to kill me and my family, and take my nation from me, I'd kill them. No worries about that. But that doesn't mean my worldview includes rigid opinions about races of people and their place in history - or my own for that matter! Trying to survive when someone is trying to kill you is an existential act, if you want to get philosophical about it. But it is also simply a normal biological function. It doesn't need to be justified with a framework of religious, political and historical motives.

I'm not preaching. I'm simply banging the other gong to the one you bang, Bin. Is anyone allowed to do that?

As for knowing what's right: good an evil must be, of necessity, absolute concepts. They cannot be relative, or a matter of opinion. Once they're opened up to moral relativism, they are stultified. So then, since you know what's right, what concept of right and wrong guides you?

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@Robert Drane,

Quote:

As for knowing what's right: good an evil must be, of necessity, absolute concepts. They cannot be relative, or a matter of opinion. Once they're opened up to moral relativism, they are stultified.

Not sure what stultified means, but this is one of the best paragraphs I've read on this forum. My hat's off to ya dude.

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

Not sure what stultified means, but this is one of the best paragraphs I've read on this forum. My hat's off to ya dude.

Haha! Thanx Solace. All I mean by "stultified" in this sense is that the entire argument about good and evil is rendered useless - trivial and irrelevant - as soon as you decide that it's a relative concept. By extension, any other arguments as to what's right and wrong are also rendered irrelevant.

We all agree, to some extent, on what "bad behaviour" is. We seem to have universal criteria for that. But then, as time goes on, that notion also changes - people attribute this to "changing times" or "cultural differences." Right now, the Middle East situation conforms to an agreed notion of "bad behavior" - you know, people killing each other, people rationalising their violent nature with political and religious explanations, fanaticism and its concomitant behaviours, etc - but for some reason, the Middle East is exempt from these criteria. They re-write those criteria so that they apply to others, and not themselves.

But if both sides have a motgage on the notion of good and evil, and they're on this forum, then we should hear from them. Why? Because one day, they way the situation is going, their problems will become the world's problems - that's why we resent this "mind your own business" response from the protagonists - and when their problems become ours, ONLY THEIR notion of good and evil will matter. Ours won't mean a thing. Best to say something now while we can, then, isn't it?
bOb

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@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

What are you preaching about!?

I don't believe there was any preaching in the response you are referring to. However, I may do a little here. :shifty:

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

I know what is right. Someone comes to kill me and my family and my entire country, kill him. Justice. If I don't kill him, then all will know that there are no concequences and that they can freely come and kill me and my family.

You know what is right? Please enlighten me. What is right? You may perceive this to be right but if you actually think that the purpose of your life is to administer justice to others.... I'm not sure how to respond. All I can see are blind people around me.

The only reason people would come to kill your family is because is directly related to the level of consciousness you are embracing. The fear of such a thing plants the seed of thought, likewise manifesting that reality.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

It's you that's living in the sky. Come down to earth and see the REAL problem that is happening here. REAL problems need REAL solutions not flower talk :flowers: and luvy doviness.

Contrary to what you may believe, I fail to see any productivity in the, Eye-for-an-Eye type justice system. Is it a secret that what we do to others we're actually doing to ourselves?... Whether we find out today or when we destroy each other, I believe we'll discover it when we are ready.

It's my perception that this poster you are referring to is not 'living in the sky', as you've referred. However, if it came down to it I'd rather live in the sky than to be a blind man wandering the earth.

One thing about living in the sky though, is that the sun will shine everyday no matter how dark and bleak it may seem in the bowels of the divided perception and creativity of the man living in the dark.

Love actually creates an environment of balance and this love is something every man will discover when they are ready to shed the fallacies of the men he's followed for ages.

Man has no knowledge of what man is. Everyone believing in something created by another man who doesn't know who he is. If one isn't leading himself, he's following another.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

The Arabs will not be satisfied with anything but the end to a Jewish state. They've attacked several times in the past and will continue to do so in the future. In fact, Islam will not be satisfied with anything less that conquering the world.

This is radicalism. Hate breads hate. War creates war. A seed from a watermelon creates more watermelons. Who the hell is Islam?... Another deity created by the altered perception of yet another blind man? Likewise, Who the hell is God? Who the hell are you? Who the hell am I? How is it we're still so far detached and divided?

Under the presumption that like seeks and creates like, what our mind conceives and accepts as truth, it manifests itself into our perceived reality. It doesn't seem like rocket science because it has expressed itself in every way possible and manifested itself into a reality of what we have today... Maybe I'm the blind one.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

When Europe defeated them 400 years ago they said, "Today you defeated us from without, tomorrow we will defeat you from within."

Congratulations.[INDENT]Edit - sentence structure and added a paragraph. (rambled).[/INDENT]

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@Justin,

Quote:

All I can see are blind people around me.

Justin is Julianne Moore!!!:eek:

Surprised

Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood. Feel free to delete mods... Justin I'm looking at you.:whistling:

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

Justin is Julianne Moore!!!:eek:

Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood. Feel free to delete mods... Justin I'm looking at you.:whistling:

Mate, I'm thinking of starting a thread: Is there a place for humour in philosophy?

Philospohy is always light on gags. Even when you read a book on the philosophy of irony, it analyses it to death (as it should - that's what philosophy does) but unfortunately form doesn't mirror content. The philosopher is usually an agelast. Wittgenstein had a point....come to think of it, no he didn't

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The idea that the Jews are God's chosen people?

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