Universal Health Care

@RDRDRD1,

RDRDRD1;79564 wrote:

Well Rich, if you genuinely have that $600,000 you claim to have saved in foregone insurance premiums, you've rolled the die and won. And what of all the non-obese types you so obsess about who haven't won but who have lost?

They will have to make a decision about what they want to do, just like I did. They can pay for excessive medical procedures, unhealthy lifestyles, and huge profits by insurance companies who will drop coverage on the first claim, or they can do what I did. It is up to them. I make decisions for myself, not other people. And you don't think that people who enter the medical system are not rolling the dice? As if the health care system is not full of its own risks?

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA

Bad Reactions to prescription drugs

Quote:

far more than most people realize, researchers say.

In any case, if they are of poor health and eat the average kind of American diet, I would suggest that they buy as much insurance as they can afford until the insurance company cuts them off.

If someone is in good health and they want insurance, I would buy the cheapest catastrophic health insurance they can find and hope they can collect money from the insurance company if there is a major accident.

Quote:

It's lamentable that "most" of your healthcare professionals are drug and tobacco addicted as you assert. Curious how these disagreements almost inevitably drift into magical thinking of this sort.

I have yet to meet a health professional that has or promotes a healthy lifestyle. It is the way it is. They really do believe in their own medicine. So, that is the way it is.

Quote:

BTW, to what sterling purpose are you putting that $600,000?

Oh, I'll just do things just like I always do.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;79568 wrote:

I have yet to meet a health professional that has or promotes a healthy lifestyle. It is the way it is. They really do believe in their own medicine. So, that is the way it is.

Every time I go to the doctor I get the same message - eat better, stop smoking, don't drink so much, exercise. They always talk about the same lifestyle changes you are suggesting, only they happen to know that deconex will help with congestion - and you know, they are right, too.

Doctors are familiar with this concept of a healthy lifestyle, and they do try to impart this upon their patients.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;79569 wrote:

Every time I go to the doctor I get the same message - eat better, stop smoking, don't drink so much, exercise. They always talk about the same lifestyle changes you are suggesting, only they happen to know that deconex will help with congestion - and you know, they are right, too.

Doctors are familiar with this concept of a healthy lifestyle, and they do try to impart this upon their patients.

Well, my friend was just in the hospital for three days where he was put on drugs for three months with not a single mention of lifestyle changes.

My girlfriend saw two doctors about a year ago, and neither suggested she change her eating habits even though it was clear that certain foods were causing the reactions. One doctor went so far as to say that she should keep eating the foods if she likes them.

And another doctor gave another friend of mine a ton of pills and told him that he is free to eat anything he wants, but he will be on the pills for the rest of his life.

The best one was when my girlfriend's mother was in the hospital and the physician wanted to operate because she was experiencing pain in her abdominal area. I thought that the pain was from the poor food she was eating in the hospital, so my girlfriend just brought her mother some nice clean broth for the next couple of days, and the pain went away and her mom went home.

Strange stuff.

Rich

0 Replies

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;67316 wrote:

As someone in the United States that can not afford both tuition for college and health care, I wonder why the U.S. cannot get on the boat with the rest of the developed world and offer health care to all of their citizens. I have read most of the argument for and against universalized health care, and the arguments against it appear to be little more than rhetoric propagated by the insurance and pharmaceutical industry. There is much chatter as well from people that seem to think that the government would not be effective at running a health care plan. Why is the government trusted with running the military, but cannot be trusted to run health care?

So I ask, why should we, or why shouldn't we have universalized health care so all Americans can receive the care they need regardless of pre-existing conditions. Other things to consider: is it moral for people to profit from health care? Why is health care in this country tied to employment? Why are people so concern with an increase in taxes when it means that there would be less out-of-the-pocket expenses associated with health care? What is the best form of paying for health care?

Here is my opinion in brief.

1. Access to health care is not a individual right, not is aces to employment, housing, food, etc. The only proper rights, or most of them in any case, are negative rights: i.e. they are not rights to something, but rights which protect one from something, like unreasonable searches. To force some to pay for the health care, food, housing, etc. of others is theft.

2. Welfare of any form is a means of control, designed to keep the poor where they are, not to allow for their advancement. The worst tyrannies, where the richest people rule, always provide a dole to the poor. Bread and circuses. The essential concept is dependency.

3. Welfare in any form is parasitic and destructive of real wealth. A society which takes from the productive and gives to the unproductive will eventually become imbalanced and collapse. This is happening NOW. Look around.

4. As if the U.S. weren't already doomed to insolvency, can we afford universal health care? No! We cannot possibly afford to meet the obligations we have now through SS, Medicare and Medicaid. If all my other points were completely wrong, the fiscal issue ends the argument anyway. It is impossible to institute universal health care without completely bankrupting the nation...or rather bankrupting it a little faster than we would otherwise.

1 Reply

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon;79731 wrote:

Here is my opinion in brief.

1. To force some to pay for the health care, food, housing, etc. of others is theft.

2. Welfare of any form is a means of control, designed to keep the poor where they are, not to allow for their advancement.

3. Welfare in any form is parasitic and destructive of real wealth.

4. As if the U.S. weren't already doomed to insolvency, can we afford universal health care? No! We cannot possibly afford to meet the obligations we have now through SS, Medicare and Medicaid. If all my other points were completely wrong, the fiscal issue ends the argument anyway. It is impossible to institute universal health care without completely bankrupting the nation...or rather bankrupting it a little faster than we would otherwise.

1. In that case, so is forcing people to pay for nuclear weapons. So is forcing them to pay for illegal invasions of countries which they want nothing to do with. Here's an idea, why don't we all just contribute taxes to the things we each individually deem okay, and then we'll all be happy? :sarcastic:
If you want to talk about theft, all private property is the result of theft. Mankind did not crawl out of the primordial soup 'owning' things. The earth and all its fruits belonged to everyone. Somewhere along the line, someone decided, illegitimately, that something was theirs and theirs alone. They had no right to do this, but hey-ho, they did it anyway, and that has led to the warm, cuddly world we now find ourselves in, a world where people like you think it is morally fine to let people die in agony if they don't have money. Nice.

2. Oh my GOD! Do you honestly believe that? That is just bullshlt right-wing political rhetoric to 'justify' the continued exploitation of the poor. Welfare is a form of control? No, you're thinking of MONEY.

3. Not welfare, WEALTH.

4. Are you serious? Are you really? A nation that can afford to spend trillions of dollars invading Iraq, and billions on nuclear weapons and other defense? A nation where you have people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, each worth over 50 billion dollars, and others of a slightly less plutocratic status.

Of course you can.

You simply choose not to.

2 Replies

@gojo1978,

gojo1978;79734 wrote:

4. Are you serious? Are you really? A nation that can afford to spend trillions of dollars invading Iraq, and billions on nuclear weapons and other defense? A nation where you have people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, each worth over 50 billion dollars, and others of a slightly less plutocratic status.

While the costs of a war can be controlled (e.g. by ending it), there is no way to control the costs of health care for a unhealthy population such as the one in the U.S. It is impossible, especially if the medical community starts creating fear among the public whenever anyone starts trying to limit unnecessary medical procedures (e.g., "if you don't get this MRI, you will die!"). It is impossible to provide universal health care given the dynamics of the U.S. population. The population keeps getting more obese each year and the medical industry keeps promoting more expensive treatments with little effort in changing lifestyle habits.

Something has to give. Our health care costs as a percentage of GDP is skyrocketing without providing any advantages compared to other industrialized and non-industrialized nations which funnel a lot less to health care. The system in this country is totally out of whack. Everyone knows it, but no one wants to stand up to the medical industry.

http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/health/spend/cost_longlife75.gif

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;79755 wrote:

The system in this country is totally out of whack. Everyone knows it, but no one wants to stand up to the medical industry.

Well, why don't you and your (allegedly) well-informed compatriots put in power someone who will?

1 Reply

@gojo1978,

gojo1978;79757 wrote:

Well, why don't you and your (allegedly) well-informed compatriots put in power someone who will?

The change has to come from people themselves. They have to start taking care of themselves in healthful ways: e.g. less food, more nutritious foods, more moderate exercise, more rest, more attention to breathing, better relationships, etc. These are the sources of good health, or health care. It has almost nothing to do with genetics, as the World Health Organization study underscored.

Every morning, my girlfriend and I stretch and massage each other's back to promote good blood circulation and energy flow in the body. We eat whole grain breakfasts, and we walk. These are examples of what people can do to cut down or eliminate medical costs (neither of us goes to a physician).

Good health has everything to do with lifestyle choices, and there is no amount of money that can care for poor lifestyle choices. It is impossible.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;79761 wrote:

The change has to come from people themselves. They have to start taking care of themselves in healthful ways: e.g. less food, more nutritious foods, more moderate exercise, more rest, more attention to breathing, better relationships, etc. These are the sources of good health, or health care. It has almost nothing to do with genetics, as the World Health Organization study underscored. It has everything to do with lifestyle choices, and there is no amount of money that can care for poor lifestyle choices. It is impossible.

Rich

Two words:

Jim Fixx

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;79559 wrote:

There is no reason to worry about me or to use those scare tactics that are so much part of this system. The fact is that the vast, vast amount of the money spent in our medical system is going towards treating lifestyle issues, unnecessary and incredibly expensive procedures, huge profits, and fantastic provider lifestyle needs. I would rather my money go to some more worthwhile cause.

The reason why so much money for healthcare is spent on lifestyle choices is because it is very profitable. And this has been done by design through the collusion of the agricultural-pharmaceutical-health care industrial complex. People being in bad health is good for business for all the players in this system. If health care was removed from this complex, then there would be incentive for promoting better lifestyle choices in order to decrease health care costs. Otherwise, the system as is rewards health care providers for people's bad health.

1 Reply

@gojo1978,

gojo1978;79762 wrote:

Two words:

Jim Fixx

If people wish to continue to eat like there is no tomorrow, sit around and watch football while drinking beer, and stressing themselves out at work, so that that they can make enough money to pay for the medical bills which are caused by their stress, then that is their choice. I just don't want to pay for their medical bills.

It seems to me to be quite clear from the graph and from the WHO studies that money does not buy happiness. It fact, apparently it buys less life.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;79764 wrote:

If people wish to continue to eat like there is no tomorrow, sit around and watch football while drinking beer, and stressing themselves out at work, so that that they can make enough money to pay for the medical bills which are caused by their stress, then that is their choice. I just don't want to pay for their medical bills.

It seems to me to be quite clear from the graph and from the WHO studies that money does not buy happiness. It fact, apparently it buys less life.

Rich

Well, surely by that rationale, you should be looking to divest yourself of as much of it as possible? Why not pay for medical bills?

0 Replies

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;79763 wrote:

The reason why so much money for healthcare is spent on lifestyle choices is because it is very profitable. And this has been done by design through the collusion of the agricultural-pharmaceutical-health care industrial complex. People being in bad health is good for business for all the players in this system. If health care was removed from this complex, then there would be incentive for promoting better lifestyle choices in order to decrease health care costs. Otherwise, the system as is rewards health care providers for people's bad health.

I agree. There is no incentive to promote good health at this time. Too many jobs and profits are at stake.

Rich

---------- Post added 07-27-2009 at 08:56 AM ----------

gojo1978;79766 wrote:

Well, surely by that rationale, you should be looking to divest yourself of as much of it as possible? Why not pay for medical bills?

I use only a very small fraction of my savings. It is simply not necessary to spend money to have good health. Less food, more exercise, more rest, better relationships. None of this has anything to do with money.

Rich

1 Reply

@Theaetetus,

Gojo, there are some who seriously speculate that our American cousins are experiencing some form of mass psychosis, a type of conditioning that leaves many unable to perceive their best interests and blinded by an almost religious belief that their "founding fathers" were the Masters of all wisdom, virtual gods.

The American people were manipulated into two catastrophic wars launched by semi-literate political leadership and led by a gaggle of careerist and incompetent generals who maintained that simply being American was sufficient to defeat their nation's supposed enemies. When genuine, patriotic leaders like General Eric Shinseki spoke honestly about what conquering Iraq would entail, his truth was taken as insubordination and he was sacked.

Meanwhile, at the altar of the god Free Enterprise, America's middle class has been given up in human sacrifice, while the gap between rich and poor has steadily widened as the elite strip America of its manufacturing strength, outsource American jobs and invest what is truly American wealth into growing the economies of America's rivals. That is about as unpatriotic as it comes but in a nation whose people have been misled to see wealth as virtue, its growing existence in a dwindling number of hands itself proof of... something. Best no one notice that the miners' canary, social mobility, has fallen from its perch so that, today, the progression from blue collar to white collar to the wealthy class is being choked.

Just as the American people were manipulated and misled on foreign wars and just as the American people were manipulated and misled on global warming, now they're being fiercely manipulated and misled on universal health care.

The palpable nonsense that's being spewed by America's politicians, by America's pharmaceutical and medical lobbies and through America's media is astonishing. They are actually being told they have the best medical care in the world, that they have the best medical system of any nation. What is carefully left out is that there is no "they" in American healthcare. They is universal, American healthcare is not.

What is missing from these claims is truth. They should be told that some have the best medical care in the world and that some of them have access to the best medical system of any nation while some others have but partial access and some others still have no insured access at all.

The American people are told that universal healthcare is socialist, something that's pawned off on them as communist, totalitarian. Why once those socialists get universal healthcare in place the next thing they'll do is take away the vote and start confiscating everyone's guns. It'll be the beginning of the end of America, whatever that is today.

At this point I want to state that I am not anti-American. I did my undergrad in the United States. My very best friend of almost 40-years now, is a profoundly patriotic American, a Vietnam combat veteran. Coming from a family that's been in Canada roughly two centuries, I have American family. I holiday every year in America, well the Pacific northwest states anyway which are at least technically American.

I don't hate America but I do get damned angry at the way the American people allow a gaggle of very advantaged miscreants to manipulate them with lies and fear mongering. I really want the old America back.

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;79768 wrote:

There is no incentive to promote good health at this time.

Right, no one promotes good health. Just click on the links.

ACPM - American College of Preventive Medicine
https://catalog.ama-assn.org/Catalog/product/product_detail.jsp;jsessionid=LA5JFU4C52B33LA0MRPVX5Q?childName=nochildcat&parentCategory=Clinical&productId=prod90028&categoryName=Clinical&start=1&parentId=Clinicalhttp://www.cdc.gov/obesity/recommendations.html
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/ob_gdlns.pdf
Obesity and Overweight for Professionals: State Programs | DNPAO | CDC
Preventive Medicine Residency and Fellowship
Obesity and Overweight: Topics | DNPAO | CDC
Health Care: U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) Subdirectory Page
Department of Nutrition - Harvard School of Public Health
Welcome to the Division of Preventive Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts
General Preventive Medicine Residency at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
Preventive Medicine Residency Home Page
University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine, Preventative Medicine Residency Program Records - Special Collections, UW Libraries
Preventive Medicine Specialty Forum

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes;79774 wrote:

Right, no one promotes good health. Just click on the links.

ACPM - American College of Preventive Medicine
https://catalog.ama-assn.org/Catalog/product/product_detail.jsp;jsessionid=LA5JFU4C52B33LA0MRPVX5Q?childName=nochildcat&parentCategory=Clinical&productId=prod90028&categoryName=Clinical&start=1&parentId=Clinicalhttp://www.cdc.gov/obesity/recommendations.html
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/ob_gdlns.pdf
Obesity and Overweight for Professionals: State Programs | DNPAO | CDC
Preventive Medicine Residency and Fellowship
Obesity and Overweight: Topics | DNPAO | CDC
Health Care: U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) Subdirectory Page
Department of Nutrition - Harvard School of Public Health
Welcome to the Division of Preventive Medicine, Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts
General Preventive Medicine Residency at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
Preventive Medicine Residency Home Page
University of Washington School of Public Health and Community Medicine, Preventative Medicine Residency Program Records - Special Collections, UW Libraries
Preventive Medicine Specialty Forum

The amount of time and money spent on medical procedures and pharmaceutical drugs overwhelms that which is spent on good health pratices. The medical profession has successfully convinced the U.S. population that it is all genetics.

Education about lifestyle choices a major way to cut health care costs : Editorials : Boulder Daily Camera

Schools, in Chicago, have done away with recess, which use to be the time that kids can go out and actually move around and play which means so much to their mental and physical health. Is the health profession trying to get recess back into the schools? Or are they just promoting new drugs to be given to young children whose bodies have not developed enough to withstand these drugs.

And now, the medical profession is going to hide behind some websites as proof of its commitment to healthy lifestyles? What have you done on this forum to promote healthy lifestyles? I'd like to see a lot more support for less eating and a lot less for more medical procedures, across the board.

Are you willing to suggest people forgo all the unnecessary medical procedures that they are going through right now (look at the chart of costs in the U.S. vs. other countries and life expectancies). These costs didn't come out of nowhere. This comes from heavy marketing promotion, primarily using fear:

Or are you too scared to suggest that the U.S is spending way too much because of the pressures of the medical industry? How much less should the U.S. population be spending per capita on medical expenses? Where should they be buying their food, and what kind of food should they be eating? How much red meat do you suggest people eat?

How about that sickly food they serve in hospitals or surgeons promoting all kinds of cosmetic surgery? Or how about expensive drugs that have been shown to provide no benefit over generic? Should they be taken off the market? Should the whole medical education be revamped so that the majority of the curriculum is spent on preventative healthy lifestyle practices - e.g. food, exercise, self-massage, relaxation (yoga, taijiquan)? Who should fund studies to show conclusively that healthy style choices not only matter, but are the key determining factor of someone's health?

I would like to see how far you are really willing to go?

Rich

1 Reply

@RDRDRD1,

RDRDRD1;79771 wrote:

Gojo, there are some who seriously speculate that our American cousins are experiencing some form of mass psychosis, a type of conditioning that leaves many unable to perceive their best interests and blinded by an almost religious belief that their "founding fathers" were the Masters of all wisdom, virtual gods.

God, yes, I know! It's so tiresome, that. The ironic thing is that they were revolutionaries themselves, the US state was founded by revolutionaries, with a truly admirable cause, yet the US public is being hypnotised and deceived and cowed into a position where it's alleged to be "unconstitutional" to go against the government! The most unconstitutional entity of any sort in recent memory is the last government administration.

Doubly ironic is that the reason for the constitutionally protected guns (an anachronism) is to aid in the overthrow of any government should it start to act against the will and freedom of the American people.

RDRDRD1;79771 wrote:

The palpable nonsense that's being spewed by America's politicians, by America's pharmaceutical and medical lobbies and through America's media is astonishing. They are actually being told they have the best medical care in the world, that they have the best medical system of any nation. What is carefully left out is that there is no "they" in American healthcare. They is universal, American healthcare is not.

What is missing from these claims is truth. They should be told that some have the best medical care in the world and that some of them have access to the best medical system of any nation while some others have but partial access and some others still have no insured access at all.

Yes, this is symptomatic of America's generally parochial view of the world. The lack of passport ownership (one of the lowest in the world). The masses are kept stupid and inward looking by mass media and advertising, swearing allegiance to the flag (why?), while the more educated ruling class bleed them dry under the banner of 'freedom'. They are taught and conditioned to be unquestioning.

There is no 'they' in America at all. Except when there's dirty work to be done.

"WE need to invade Iraq, etc., WE need to pay taxes, etc., etc."

"Over here, WE need medical assistance"

"What's that? YOU need medical assistance? You want US to pay for it? I'M sorry, YOU'RE on YOUR own"

They can't have it both ways. But at the moment, they are being allowed to.

RDRDRD1;79771 wrote:

The American people are told that universal healthcare is socialist, something that's pawned off on them as communist, totalitarian. Why once those socialists get universal healthcare in place the next thing they'll do is take away the vote and start confiscating everyone's guns. It'll be the beginning of the end of America, whatever that is today.

Yes. It needs to be explained that some aspects, such as healthcare and services, socialism is okay; these should, after all, be services, and not businesses. Socialising healthcare and public transport does not automatically lead to a ban on private enterprise. But it is not in the interest of the few who profit from these things for the masses to know that, so keep pumping them full of junk and waving that flag.

RDRDRD1;79771 wrote:

At this point I want to state that I am not anti-American. I did my undergrad in the United States. My very best friend of almost 40-years now, is a profoundly patriotic American, a Vietnam combat veteran. Coming from a family that's been in Canada roughly two centuries, I have American family. I holiday every year in America, well the Pacific northwest states anyway which are at least technically American.

I don't hate America but I do get damned angry at the way the American people allow a gaggle of very advantaged miscreants to manipulate them with lies and fear mongering. I really want the old America back.

I am not anti-American either, I have family in Texas whom I visit most years, and I love going there. I do actually hope to move there in the next few years myself, but I will do so being fully aware of its flaws (mainly healthcare & gun laws), seemingly unlike a majority of the population.

0 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;79778 wrote:

The amount of time and money spent on medical procedures and pharmaceutical drugs overwhelms that which is spent on good health pratices.

Ah, so it's no longer what you said before, that there is "no incentive". I thought you'd change your tune. Would you like me to provide links to preventative medicine research grant opportunities?

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes;79788 wrote:

Ah, so it's no longer what you said before, that there is "no incentive". I thought you'd change your tune. Would you like me to provide links to preventative medicine research grant opportunities?

I just checked the NIH $30 billion dollar budget, and less than 3% goes to prevention.

What changes in the current health system do you advocate? Right now, Cuba spends a couple of hundreds of dollars per person vs. $4500 in the U.S. and the population has approximately the same life expectancy. Are you willing to say that the U.S. spends way to much money on health care intervention and not nearly enough on prevention?

Are current allocations to the amount of money spent on finding new drugs appropriate when compared to the amount spent on lifestyle habits? I am advocating a completely overhaul of where money and energy is spent. Physicians should be trained on lifestyle habits not drugs. What are you advocating? The status quo?

Rich

2 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;79790 wrote:

Are current allocations to the amount of money spent on finding new drugs appropriate when compared to the amount spent on lifestyle habits? I am advocating a completely overhaul of where money and energy is spent. Physicians should be trained on lifestyle habits not drugs. What are you advocating? The status quo?

For the most part, I agree with this. I do think that health care needs to move more towards prevention rather than intervention. But at the same time, many people have been helped immensely through good use of prescription drugs. Many prescriptions fall under the prevention form of health care. For example, I take Zoloft for social anxiety disorder. My $5 a month prescription helps me deal with my condition rather than resort to much more dangerous health behaviors that I used to rely on. This will help prevent me from having to go through treatment for liver problems later in life from drinking far too much in social situations.

1 Reply

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