Are Humans Genetically Predisposed to Forming Social Hierarchical Power Structures?

@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead wrote:

Make the most complex society with the grooviest laws ever all because of our rational thought abilities, it still has no bearing on the genetic predisposition to hierarchical socio-political structures. All the rational thought of all history has yet to produce a non hierarchical community.

Where is your justification for saying that the most complex environment will have no bearing on hierarchical structures. I mean you may be right, but I'm curious to know where the justification for such a statement comes from. I admit that I am somewhat skeptical of such a claim because humans are influenced by their environment way more than they are by their genes.

All the rational thought of all of history has yet to produce a non-hierarchical society, but that doesn't mean that it wont or can't produce a non-hierarchical society. Consider the fact that human civilization has only been active for 7,000 years. We haven't even reached level 1 on Kardashev's civilization scale.

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@hue-man,

So if rational thought has yet to produce a non hierarchical society in 7000+ years of "recorded (at least orally) history", I would assume that rational thought has little to do with anything but hierarchical organization not the predisposition for hierarchical structures. Hierarchical organization is responsive to the environment, technology, population, socio-cultural trends etc... the predisposition is still there and still universal. If rational thought hasn't made an impact on the universal existence of the hierarchical in 7000+ years It should be safe to assume that its not likely to do so without the evolution of something more than rational thought as we supposedly understand it, possibly a post-rational thought, which if evolved would likely be semantically extended intergenerationally as rational thought anyway.

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@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead wrote:

So if rational thought has yet to produce a non hierarchical society in 7000+ years of "recorded (at least orally) history", I would assume that rational thought has little to do with anything but hierarchical organization not the predisposition for hierarchical structures. Hierarchical organization is responsive to the environment, technology, population, socio-cultural trends etc... the predisposition is still there and still universal. If rational thought hasn't made an impact on the universal existence of the hierarchical in 7000+ years It should be safe to assume that its not likely to do so without the evolution of something more than rational thought as we supposedly understand it, possibly a post-rational thought, which if evolved would likely be semantically extended intergenerationally as rational thought anyway.

I guess you missed my my point when I said that our civilization is actually very young.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that man cannot rid his society of hierarchical structures? Can you also list the hierarchical structures of the modern day world (I just want to see how you view it)?

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@Theaetetus,

As much as I want to say that humans could rid themselves of hierarchical power structures, I just do not see it as practical. As long as their are urban environments there will be hierarchical structures, because they are impossible to do away with in high population density.

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@hue-man,

hue-man wrote:

I guess you missed my my point when I said that our civilization is actually very young.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that man cannot rid his society of hierarchical structures? Can you also list the hierarchical structures of the modern day world (I just want to see how you view it)?

The question is if we are genetically predisposed for hierarchical structures in society. You know little facts like our close relation with primates, and the analogous hierarchical structures both have would suggest that we are predisposed for them. To say "don't you think man could over come that" is like saying don't you think that gay guy (who is predisposed for same sex attraction) can overcome his gayness? I didn't miss your point, I just think the point doesn't address the question.

---------- Post added at 01:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

hue-man wrote:

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that man cannot rid his society of hierarchical structures? Can you also list the hierarchical structures of the modern day world (I just want to see how you view it)?

Let's say, take an example from comedy writing where a group of friends is always portrayed with a stereotype (the drunk one) (the renegade) ( the nerdy one) etc... in every group of friends their is always (the leader) as well. Put two people in a closed environment and before long they will establish a heirarchy. Multiply our little hierarchical group of friends into a band of 100 and you get a classic big man situation, into a villiage of 1000 you get a cheiftan and so on up the ladder. there is no social group from family on up to nation that you belong to that isn't divided somehow into at least an informal heirarchy. It is because we have as humans related to primates a Pack Mentality.

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@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead wrote:

The question is if we are genetically predisposed for hierarchical structures in society. You know little facts like our close relation with primates, and the analogous hierarchical structures both have would suggest that we are predisposed for them. To say "don't you think man could over come that" is like saying don't you think that gay guy (who is predisposed for same sex attraction) can overcome his gayness? I didn't miss your point, I just think the point doesn't address the question.

Well in my first post on this topic I said yes, I think that we are predisposed to forming hierarchical structures. Just because someone is predisposed to something doesn't guarantee that the inclination will manifest itself. Genetic predisposition can be modified by environmental conditions.

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@hue-man,

hue-man wrote:

Well in my first post on this topic I said yes, I think that we are predisposed to forming hierarchical structures. Just because someone is predisposed to something doesn't guarantee that the inclination will manifest itself. Genetic predisposition can be modified by environmental conditions.

I think humans doing away with hierarchy would be about as dramatic as if humans did away with language. There are just way too many humans on the planet to do away with hierarchy, and not to mention there are just too many stupid people that you would not want to have the power they would in an egalitarian society. It would not hurt for humans to do a better job with who they place at the tops of the hierarchy since we have we are beings with reason, unfortunately too many people are too stupid to even make those choices with their best interest at mind. Well, others just do not have the ability to stand up to those in power because those in power control resources and typically have stronger weapons.

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@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

I think humans doing away with hierarchy would be about as dramatic as if humans did away with language. There are just way too many humans on the planet to do away with hierarchy, and not to mention there are just too many stupid people that you would not want to have the power they would in an egalitarian society. It would not hurt for humans to do a better job with who they place at the tops of the hierarchy since we have we are beings with reason, unfortunately too many people are too stupid to even make those choices with their best interest at mind. Well, others just do not have the ability to stand up to those in power because those in power control resources and typically have stronger weapons.

But don't you think that we can do away with hierarchical institutions that we don't need? We've gotten rid of monarchies, for the most part anyway. I agree that some hierarchies are justified in their institutionalization.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Just a thought, can it be said that our biology is a hierarchial structure, and that culture and society are then extenisions of the structure, is it even desireable to have it any other way, accept perhaps to refine those hierarchial structures. The model for society is our own biology, the army, police departments and the courts, aspects of its immune system.

I like your thinking. Smile

This IMHO, would not work, because it is like saying the psychological perspective is an echo of something indifferent to what is psychological, being the biological. I don't really have any insights to condone this notion though.

I think the reason why hierarchy appears is because it is efficient. Some people just want to conform I think, even to things which don't really exist. A hierarchy is inevitably going to emerge when equality is an impossibility. We can practice humility all we want, but this does not get rid of our appeal to hierarchy and it's efficiency.

Isn't leadership a hierarchical structure? Teaching? Vigilence (though I hate the concept; it is not rationality which can make people introduce anarchy in their lives). Why are we thinking here that rational thought is going to bring us a society without hierarchy?

Hierarchical structuring is based on our egocentric desires differing from anothers, logic is only a pawn to defend the ego, it does not fight it. Rationality requires a bit more of an empirical realization that something is indeed very wrong with society in order for the society to change.

To say there is a hierarchy is to say there is an inequality between classes, right? Wealth, intellect, physical, religious, sexual etc. Rational thought will not eliminate the hierarchy but rather manipulate it. If it is irrational for there to be a sexual hierarchy where men dominate women why is this? It is not because there is a disparity itself. Anyone wanting equality for the sake of equality is a fool, perhaps a typical conservative. It is going to be irrational if both classes do not benefit at an increasing rate better than the other.

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Are Humans Genetically Predisposed to Forming Social Hierarchical Power Structures?

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