Evil Is Good And God Doesn't Exist???

@urangutan,

Lighten up guys. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar--a little humour gives balance.:cool: I am going back to my room now!!:rolleyes:

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Lighten up guys. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar--a little humour gives balance.:cool: I am going back to my room now!!:rolleyes:

I don't know if you ever heard this story before...

A group of 4 students, all studying at MIT, top of their class, enter a diner to get something to eat. Upon receiving their food, one guy notices that the caps for the salt and pepper shakers had been switched - the salt cap on the pepper bottle, the pepper cap on the salt bottle. The group decided that they would solve this problem, and so developed an elaborate plan to sift the contents of each bottle into the appropriate container, while retaining every last grain of the salt and pepper. After almost 15 minutes of plan development and preparation in order to make sure they had this process down pat, the waitress comes back to the table bewildered at the sight of salt and pepper dispersed. She asks, "What on God's earth are you all doing?!". One of the MIT students respond, "Oh, we had realized that you had placed the salt and pepper in the wrong shakers, and so developed this plan to sift all the contents into the appropriate shaker."

The waitress responds, "Why didn't you just switch the caps?".

Yes, I tend to overthink.

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@Ramsey phil,

Ramsey wrote:

But then again that's something right there.

Adam and Eve lives in the perfect Garden of Eden, to some scholars they were created perfect. Thus would perfect beings, not be perfectly good, as well as perfectly evil? I think I'm right in saying I'm taking a page from St. Augustine, but if they were created perfect, would they have even know what good and evil were, or even right or wrong was. If they were both perfectly good, and perfectly evil then, would both concepts even exist in their thought?

So is it possible the God even contradicted itself at this point?

What is it meant by 'perfect'? I doubt that it is ethical for a human to be perfect so if God created something unethical is that not contradictory?

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@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

I'll have to apologize for singling out a point on an otherwise coherent discussion, but this statement (if you'll excuse the adversarial tone) is false.

By all means disagree, you wont offend me I assure you, but consider this: Even Nietzsche held 'true Christianity' in high regard. Granted he believed there was only one 'true Christian', Jesus Christ Himself, but that doesn't necessarily sell the idea short (I think to truly be like Jesus is more Zen-like than most Christians would dare to admit). The word 'Christian' means 'follower of Christ'. Further, it means that to be a good Christian you should be like Jesus Christ. Can you see anything wrong with being like Jesus Christ? Wouldn't you agree that if more people behaved like Jesus, the world would be a better place to live in?

I was speaking in terms of practicality. Having positive role models in our lives is a good thing, especially in our Gansta' Rap generation where 'Jesus' is replace by a drug dealing pimp. Growing up in a church, with Jesus Christ as a role model, can yield positive psychological benefits.

Obviously there are plenty of cases where people have associated their own perverted goals with the good advice in the bible. That's a standard practice in any form of manipulation, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Christianity in its pure form.

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@infinidream,

Hey Infinidream How goes?

infinidream wrote:

...but consider this: Even Nietzsche held 'true Christianity' in high regard.

While I hold some of Neitzche's ideas in high regard, many I don't. Further, I'm not sure this is true. And if - for the sake of argument - he *did* hold christianity in high regard, that's not relevant. I, personally, am not given to hero-worship (i.e., whether or not someone agreed or disagreed isn't germane). It's the ideas, not the man that matter in philosophical discourse. For every philosopher (everyone from the most famous to the guy down the street selling ice cream) there are aspects of their own individual notions that must be judged idea-by-idea. True, there are folks who idolize and worship their favorites; vehemently defending their hero while caressing their mail-order statuette, but that's not me. But this isn't the point to your post, was it? I'm sorry, I yet digress again :p

infinidream wrote:

Can you see anything wrong with being like Jesus Christ? Wouldn't you agree that if more people behaved like Jesus, the world would be a better place to live in?

This is an intriguing concept and worthy of fleshing out. Tossing aside all notions of biblical dogma and just focusing on the general principles of love, tolerance, compassion and the like could, on its own, be a good thing. If you'll excuse the analogy: Kind of like children running around playing 'superman' - rescuing the stranded puppy and championing victims. Supposing they know superman's not real, deifying and extolling those principles, alone, can have quite the positive effect.

Interesting notion, thanks for offering. Smile

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

It's the ideas, not the man that matter in philosophical discourse.

Please believe that we are in total agreement on this point (see my introductory post "Half the time I'm always right"). I only brought up Nietzsche because the tone of your response reminded me of his writings. I think some of his points--how Christianity is positive in its pure form, for example--become overshadowed by his points about how it is corrupt. My aim was to invoke the ideas Nietzsche brought to light, not to use his name as a paddle to give you a philosophical spanking.:eek:

1 Reply

@infinidream,

infinidream wrote:

Please believe that we are in total agreement on this point (see my introductory post "Half the time I'm always right"). I only brought up Nietzsche because the tone of your response reminded me of his writings. I think some of his points--how Christianity is positive in its pure form, for example--become overshadowed by his points about how it is corrupt. My aim was to invoke the ideas Nietzsche brought to light, not to use his name as a paddle to give you a philosophical spanking.:eek:

Well spoken, and no offense was taken Smile

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Lighten up guys. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar--a little humour gives balance.:cool: I am going back to my room now!!:rolleyes:

Yup, and sometimes its a big, brown penis

1 Reply

@infinidream,

Start a dream thread! Very Happy

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@infinidream,

Since they say actions speak louder than words, if we seek to be like Jesus, should we follow his teachings or his actions? If it's the latter, would anyone mind if I run into a church where people are doing business and start beating those people up? (Don't even pretend that people don't do business in churches, I've seen tupperware parties held in church basements.)

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@Solace,

Jesus didn't beat anyone up in the temple - he overturned tables and chastised those doing business.

But, yeah, if you followed his lead in this respect I'd praise you. Not only do the actions of Jesus advise us against religious profiteering, but so do his words, so which ever is premier, both would give credit to your actions.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Heh heh, you might praise me, but I'd probably get arrested for even overturning tables. Not that I'd mind that particularly, if I considered any modern church to be the house of God. The whole idea of receiving a salary for being a minister is religious profiteering in my book.

1 Reply

@Solace,

Ain't that the truth.

Not that I'm promoting illegal activities, but civil disobedience is a very American concept.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Lol, American maybe, but in Canada we're too polite to be right.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

civil disobedience is a very American concept.

How so? It seems that Europe has a pretty illustrious tradition of it if you look at the events of 1789, 1791, 1832, 1848, etc.

The greatest traditions of this come from Asia. The greatest of all was Gandhi, who was very influential on the tactics of Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights movement in general.

Satyagraha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Aung San Suu Kyi in Myanmar is another exponent of this, as is the Dalai Lama.

Aung San Suu Kyi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1 Reply

@Aedes,

It's a very American concept in that HD Thoreau coined the term in his famous essay. While Jefferson did not use the phrase, his political philosophy seems to align itself with the ideals of civil disobedience - Jefferson even went so far as to suggest open rebellion, violent if necessary, every ten years.

You're absolutely right, though, the greatest examples (with the exception of Dr. King) of civil disobedience come from the east, Gandhi in particular. And I would argue that civil disobedience in some form or another is an essential aspect of Buddhist political involvement. South East Asian Buddhists, especially, have a rich tradition of civil disobedience. Bless them for it.

Of course, Gandhi was greatly influenced by the Americans. And the Americans, like Thoreau, were influenced by eastern thought, too. Giant circle of political responsibility and integrity. Gotta love it.

Quote:

Lol, American maybe, but in Canada we're too polite to be right.

Well, as Aedes points out, the Dalai Lama advocates civil disobedience - and I doubt there are many people who are more polite than His Holiness.

So come on, brothers and sisters to the north, get out and disobey, in a civil manner.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Of course, Gandhi was greatly influenced by the Americans. And the Americans, like Thoreau, were influenced by eastern thought, too. Giant circle of political responsibility and integrity. Gotta love it.

That's cool, I hadn't thought about it like that -- yes, Thoreau and in particular Emerson were influenced by Buddhist philosophy.

How do you think Gandhi's experience in South Africa informed his experience?

(which reminds me that Nelson Mandela is a heroic African example of civil disobedience, though he was certainly influenced by Gandhi)

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Quote:

How do you think Gandhi's experience in South Africa informed his experience?

As I understand it, that's where Gandhi got his first taste of real political activism, that's where he first implemented his ideas of passive resistance.

Like his home nation, South Africa was a British colony. I'm sure his experiences there helped solidify his feelings against colonization, and gave him the foundational experience to carry on the vastly more complex campaign in India.

I really don't know much about Gandhi. Obviously, I'm familiar with him, and his struggle, but I don't know any of the nuances to his life or work. I just see a man who managed, without the use of violence, to cast off one of the most powerful military forces in the world. Some evidence that you may not need a military to defend your home. I'm increasingly convinced that having a (significant) military only increases the danger of being the victim of aggression.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

I'm increasingly convinced that having a (significant) military only increases the danger of being the victim of aggression.

I'm not convinced of that, if you consider the cases of the American colonies in 1775, Poland / Czecheslovakia in 1938-1939, Belgium and France in 1940, all the victims of the Napoleonic wars save Russia and Britain, Kuwait in 1990, etc. It's due largely to British incompetence and moronic strategy that they could not wipe out the Revolutionary army -- and the tenacity of Washington and von Steuben that they were able to string their ragtag army together. There are many stories of weak victims out there who fall victim to stronger adversaries. Why did we attack Iraq and not North Korea? Mainly because North Korea's military was a much bigger deterrent.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Quote:

So come on, brothers and sisters to the north, get out and disobey, in a civil manner.

I'm not sure how they did it, but our government seems to have found a way to keep us just passive enough that we complain plenty but are too lazy to do anything more than that about it. Maybe they put something in the water? j/k.

2 Replies

Evil Is Good And God Doesn't Exist???

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