Evil Is Good And God Doesn't Exist???

@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401 wrote:

That's so flawed. Funny. :rolleyes:
Thats's like saying girls = time and money. Time = money therefore girls =
Sidenote: Girls are not evil.

interesting approach to conversation.:p I'm not sure how you expect me to react when you open with "That's so flawed". Smile

If you really believe yourself to be my intillectual superior (which seems clear from the tone of your reply) then you should make an effort to meet me on my level and try to advance my thinking. to do that, you have to try to understand what I'm saying, and clearly you do not.

I am not talking about a list that makes up girls. I'm talking about a list of things that, if you took one away you would no longer have a girl. Vagina would probably be on that list, but I guess these days that could be debated. Wink

I don't need to know the entire list for the logic to work.

could you have good if you took away evil? the answer is no. you might have a great life where everyone loves you and everything is good by our definition, but if you were living that life you wouldn't have a concept of it being good. I challenge anyone to give an example of something that is defined within itself; without contrasting it against something else.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

well its convenient to use christianity as a standard for debate because it is such a well structured and clearly defined set of morality, and so many people instinctively agree with the morality set forth by the bible. look at all the comic book movies coming out for god sake. Sometimes its useful to do thought experiments and say, ok, given the biblical concept of good and evil, can it withstand the intrinsic paradox that threatens to tear it apart? I wish there were some christian representantives on this site, because there are a hell of a lot of them out in the real world and we should be comfortable talking to them without trying to make them feel stupid. I'm surprised someone hasn't started chanting "god is dead, god is dead, long live the gost of Nietzche."

1 Reply

@infinidream,

infinidream wrote:

interesting approach to conversation.:p I'm not sure how you expect me to react when you open with "That's so flawed". If you really believe yourself to be my intillectual superior (which seems clear from the tone of your reply) then you should make an effort to meet me on my level and try to advance my thinking. to do that, you have to try to understand what I'm saying, and clearly you do not.

I am not talking about a list that makes up girls. I'm talking about a list of things that, if you took one away you would no longer have a girl. Vagina would probably be on that list, but I guess these days that could be debated. I don't need to know the entire list for the logic to work.

could you have good if you took away evil? the answer is no. you might have a great life where everyone loves you and everything is good by our definition, but if you were living that life you wouldn't have a concept of it being good. I challenge anyone to give an example of something that is defined within itself; without contrasting it against something else.

Exactly - which is why I find the notion of God judging impossible. How would it judge? It would be every thing, every place, every time. The concepts of judging, the concepts of "good" and "evil" are applied by us. These are all subjective thoughts, nothing objective. (I've typed paragraphs concerning this in other threads).

As a sidenote to everyone: Let's try to keep hostility down. It's funny that we need this wake up call - I would have thought the maturity level would be much higher. Noone's notions are any better than anyone else's, and if you see someone that may need some further insight somewhere, don't play the elitist card and walk away. Simply address your ideas, and why you may disagree. Remember, we are all on the same level, despite what understanding we think we have about anything.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin you are confusing the church with religion. The doctrines that any temple proclaim is not the whole truth of religion, let alone proving that it is truth itself. Show me a war that was started by religion and I will show you mans involvement. Man is the church as much as church wants to be the man. This is not religion. You are even calling Christianity a religion when it is simply a cult and there lies a fault in itself.

When you cannot feel your toes, it doesn't mean you don't have them, simply the nerving life that pulses from them is not registering. If you want to apply this concept to your very being that is fine but don't then argue that you can walk without them when you can clearly see.

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@infinidream,

infinidream wrote:

well its convenient to use christianity as a standard for debate because it is such a well structured and clearly defined set of morality, and so many people instinctively agree with the morality set forth by the bible. look at all the comic book movies coming out for god sake. Sometimes its useful to do thought experiments and say, ok, given the biblical concept of good and evil, can it withstand the intrinsic paradox that threatens to tear it apart? I wish there were some christian representantives on this site, because there are a hell of a lot of them out in the real world and we should be comfortable talking to them without trying to make them feel stupid. I'm surprised someone hasn't started chanting "god is dead, god is dead, long live the gost of Nietzche."

It's funny - I actually think most Christians would be the ones that would be uncomfortable speaking with us. But you're right, we shouldn't approach them as if we are intellectual superiors - in fact, they may even have insights we haven't even considered. The best we can do is plant seeds, share our ideas, and try to enlighten others that wish to consider.

urangutan wrote:

Zetherin you are confusing the church with religion. The doctrines that any temple proclaim is not the whole truth of religion, let alone proving that it is truth itself. Show me a war that was started by religion and I will show you mans involvement. Man is the church as much as church wants to be the man. This is not religion. You are even calling Christianity a religion when it is simply a cult and there lies a fault in itself.

When you cannot feel your toes, it doesn't mean you don't have them, simply the nerving life that pulses from them is not registering. If you want to apply this concept to your very being that is fine but don't then argue that you can walk without them when you can clearly see.

Semantics. Can you please explain your definition of "church", and "religion"?

Also, can you explain what the "whole truth of religion" is, and where one acquires it?

We won't be able to progress until we are on the same ground. As of current, I honestly don't understand what you are believing each term means or even the concepts you are addressing.

Thanks,

Z

EDIT:

I actually think I know what you're getting at here, and it's an absolutely great insight - thank you for this.

A church could focus on something regarding a religion, preach that it's the only way, and then influence minds to discriminate. And that's the key here. The religion existing isn't the problem, but in actuality the teachings behind the religion. That's what you're getting at, right?

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Adam and Eve were thrown from the garden after eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The duality was their mistake.

I tend to think of Genesis as more figurative than literal (its the only way I can even begin to take the thing seriously). I think eating from the tree of knowledge is a representation of our transcendence from animal to human. With Self-awareness we gained the ability to evaluate our actions from another perspective and make judgments about which actions are better or worse. God, in part, is the next level of perspective, determination not only which actions are better or worse for us, but which or better or worse on a more profound omnipresent, 4th dimensional unstuck in time kind of way.:confused:

1 Reply

@infinidream,

In a sense, I agree with you, infinidream. Whether or not a story in the Bible actually happened, isn't nearly as important to me as is what I can learn from the story. It's the moral that counts.

And Zeth, about the whole maturity level, you are right. But let me add, there's not much that gets people riled up quicker than a religious discussion. Often, I would even go so far as to say usually, for the people on this forum, if/when they reply untoward, it's more out of frustration than hostility. It just comes across as hostile. But you're right, we should keep a level head, but we don't always do what we should do either.

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

In a sense, I agree with you, infinidream. Whether or not a story in the Bible actually happened, isn't nearly as important to me as is what I can learn from the story. It's the moral that counts.

And Zeth, about the whole maturity level, you are right. But let me add, there's not much that gets people riled up quicker than a religious discussion. Often, I would even go so far as to say usually, for the people on this forum, if/when they reply untoward, it's more out of frustration than hostility. It just comes across as hostile. But you're right, we should keep a level head, but we don't always do what we should do either.

Hey, I make the same mistakes. For instance, some guy was handing out flyers today, screaming, "You will burn in the depths of hell if you do not kneel before Christ!!!". Instead of civilly explaining my case, I gave him a swift kick to the jugular.

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@Zetherin,

:)Indeed it is the mythologies/religions around which these complexities arise, world religions have totalitarian ambitions. Although these world religions are outreaching, they deal harshly with those who do not get with the program.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

infinidream,
Christianity and its god have had two thousand years to save the world, what makes you think that is going to happen now? I am afraid I do not share you optimism of the power of religion to right the world, at present they do little but alienate one another. Religion appears just one more catagory of separation and alienation----the in group.

I would argue that Christianity, despite all its flaws, has made the world a better place:

The truth is, most people don't really care about philosophy. Most Christians go to church on Sunday and the rest of the week they just go about their lives. But they grow do grow up with the sermons drummed into their psyche, and some of it is bound to stick.

Whether or not you believe the bible is the word of god, following the rules it lays out does make for a relatively healthy society. Now imagine those same people (the one who don't care much about philosophy), as a bunch of narcissistic nihilists, and I believe you might be catching a glimpse of where this country is headed.

Save the world? The bible doesn't claim that it will save the world. It claims that hell will rise to the surface of the world, and only the followers of Jesus will escape!!! Sad

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@Zetherin,

Quote:

Hey, I make the same mistakes. For instance, some guy was handing out flyers today, screaming, "You will burn in the depths of hell if you do not kneel before Christ!!!". Instead of civilly explaining my case, I gave him a swift kick to the jugular.

Lol, Zeth, I probably would have done the same, (except I don't think I could kick that high, unless he was particularly short). I can accept other's opinions, and willingly reason with them, but I also have little time for zealots.

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@boagie,

Ahh, Zetherin. I am so gullible but for the fact I am learning to be patient, we would all know it.

You did however ask about whole truth. The only way I could answer this for you would be to give this example. Many questions asked on this forum, when deconstucted reveal the doubt that the person asking first reveals. Infinidream's opening stanza says that good cannot exist without there being evil. They may be correct when claiming that the word in definition could not exist but the action or sentiment naturally would. This sense of doubt confuses the purpose of the inquiry.

I am not saying that this was the definition of whole truth. If you are after help there may be doubt in your questions but if you are after answers or responses you cannot begin by being doubtful to where it is you stand.

I apologize Infinidream in singling you out as that was not the purpose, when I began in this thread. I have enjoyed this thread and much of the discussion it has brought forth.

1 Reply

@urangutan,

urangutan wrote:

Ahh, Zetherin. I am so gullible but for the fact I am learning to be patient, we would all know it.

You did however ask about whole truth. The only way I could answer this for you would be to give this example. Many questions asked on this forum, when deconstucted reveal the doubt that the person asking first reveals. Infinidream's opening stanza says that good cannot exist without there being evil. They may be correct when claiming that the word in definition could not exist but the action or sentiment naturally would. This sense of doubt confuses the purpose of the inquiry.

I am not saying that this was the definition of whole truth. If you are after help there may be doubt in your questions but if you are after answers or responses you cannot begin by being doubtful to where it is you stand.

I apologize Infinidream in singling you out as that was not the purpose, when I began in this thread. I have enjoyed this thread and much of the discussion it has brought forth.

I have no other option but to be doubtful as to where I stand. Everyday I experience new insights and become more enlightened. Just from posting on this forum for all of a week, I have discovered flaws in my past assumptions, in which I did not adequately consider. Therefore, it's tough for me to really discern where I stand at any one point in time, as I attempt to keep an open mind and doubt that I really have an answer.

Perhaps I'm just overthinking?

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@infinidream,

infinidream wrote:

I would argue that Christianity, despite all its flaws, has made the world a better place:

The truth is, most people don't really care about philosophy. Most Christians go to church on Sunday and the rest of the week they just go about their lives. But they grow do grow up with the sermons drummed into their psyche, and some of it is bound to stick.

Whether or not you believe the bible is the word of god, following the rules it lays out does make for a relatively healthy society. Now imagine those same people (the one who don't care much about philosophy), as a bunch of narcissistic nihilists, and I believe you might be catching a glimpse of where this country is headed.

Save the world? The bible doesn't claim that it will save the world. It claims that hell will rise to the surface of the world, and only the followers of Jesus will escape!!!

infinidream;

I would agree that it is possiable that Christianity was a postive force two thousand years ago, just as the Greek Pantheon served the society of its context of time and place. The Greek Pantheon is retired and placed upon a shelve of honour, beside which, there is a place for Christianity.

1 Reply

@boagie,

Zetherin, let's take the possibility that you believe in God, though thousands of people can show you how they can prove no entity ever existed. You don't have to agree or even ponder the thought but learn how to use the information they have provided to adjust the belief in your God. If you believe evil is good then just find your proof or modify your arguement for the time that your proof will manifest. You are not wrong but as you said just unstable. Right yourself towards the direction you want to lean.

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@urangutan,

Zetherin,

:rolleyes:He said, you are unstable, that you see yourself as unstable. Tell me it's not true Zetherin!!:p:rolleyes:

1 Reply

@infinidream,

infinidream wrote:

I would argue that Christianity, despite all its flaws, has made the world a better place:

I'll have to apologize for singling out a point on an otherwise coherent discussion, but this statement (if you'll excuse the adversarial tone) is false.

I know we've gotten into this before (and I'm sure we'll get into it again), but the presumption that this ancient sillyness has helped humanity - virtually at all - is extremely easy to take great exception to. Now... I'm not sure its productive to dive into the boundless litany of damage the bible's teachings has done (and continues to do) since the end of such a discussion, even in the best of worlds, would probably be "we agree to disagree", but its sufficient to say that this is not a "given" to all.

I would; however, agree that its contents have brought a great deal of comfort to many (which in and of itself speaks to some value). But in the view of humanity's "goodness", progress, pain-vs-pleasure, interractions with each other, judgments, divisiveness/polarization, perpetuating foes, instilling prejudices, pigeon-holing roles, shattering the self and much, much more, I believe it to be a great burden we can only hope to extricate ourselves from.

Perhaps that's a discussion for another time and place.

1 Reply

@boagie,

You could be right Boagie, unstable may be the wrong word if doubtful and open mind can be read as a progressive growth in ideas. Perhaps I should have said something with a more fluid texture to its tones.

What is mistaken about Christianity is how it is to associate with our pasts. We in general, should it be that you too are not of Hebrew descent, mistake the Old Testament as our inherited lineage in comprehending the New Testament. Some cults exclude the Old Books but never replace the growth in man from conception into the understanding that is Christianity.

The stories told by the Appostles would seem more appropriate in mindset if they followed the lore that was told to our ancestors. The Church in its wisdom to indoctrinate this New Scripture, erased the beliefs within much of our ancestral lands and then proceeded to pierce the memories of lore from the minds of the people.

Christianity in its core is not the problem but that it does not associate itself with our culture that was not lost, just subdued. When now we question the Word of the Lord it is awaken within ourselves those pasts that were anihilated to honour the New Lore.

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@urangutan,

urangutan wrote:

Zetherin, let's take the possibility that you believe in God, though thousands of people can show you how they can prove no entity ever existed. You don't have to agree or even ponder the thought but learn how to use the information they have provided to adjust the belief in your God. If you believe evil is good then just find your proof or modify your arguement for the time that your proof will manifest. You are not wrong but as you said just unstable. Right yourself towards the direction you want to lean.

Thoughts weigh heavy on my mind. My friend and I refer to deeper thinking as an advancement to the next 'level'. Some days stepping up to the next level is a bit overwhelming, and I decide to focus on things such as my weightlifting, job, etc. Am I unstable? Possibly. Then again, I'm also stable.

What are you getting at through all of this, and how does this correlate to my initial posting? Obviously I use information provided to adjust beliefs and attempt to prove. That's why I'm here, urangutan. I don't know if you've read my other posts but I'm constantly seeking knowledge and applying new considerations - that's what I thrive off of. And, I have made attempts to lean, however, there are still many things I have not considered and I don't feel it's right of me to lean. Sure, when I'm on level one, I do lean. You can't live life without leaning to an extent. For instance, in my everyday life I have morals and go about my daily life as if I have purpose.I don't feel it's right of me to have a stagnant mind, though, so when I'm not engrossed in mundane activities I advance to the next level. I must continue this journey and keep learning.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin I think I read post 53 in this thread completely wrong and hence went on my own tangent thinking along my own passage. I read your post again and it doesn't seem I could come up with my post without being totally off cue with what I read. I have to apologize for that one.

1 Reply

Evil Is Good And God Doesn't Exist???

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