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Obama permits off-shore oil drilling

 
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 11:22 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147702 wrote:
That accidents might happen is a given. That is why accidents are called "accidents". But that seems to be not a good reason for supposing that Alaska will be despoiled by oil drilling. You know that there is already some oil drilling in Alaska now, don't you? If we were to take Alaska off the list (as you say) because of the possibility of accidents, then where should we drill? Anywhere?


I don't understand how accidents cannot be supposed as despoiling an environment. Isn't it just about the amount of despoilation? I mean, a gum wrapper despoils to some extent.

Yes we have been getting oil from Alaska for some time now, and the damage appears minimal. How is that justification to suppose more drilling will not cause irreparable damage?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 11:28 pm
@wayne,
wayne;147724 wrote:
I don't understand how accidents cannot be supposed as despoiling an environment. Isn't it just about the amount of despoilation? I mean, a gum wrapper despoils to some extent.

Yes we have been getting oil from Alaska for some time now, and the damage appears minimal. How is that justification to suppose more drilling will not cause irreparable damage?


Of course if there is an accident, that would be bad. But if we did nothing because if we did it there might be a bad accident we would do very little. We certainly would not drive our cars, for example. Well, all we can do is depend on past experience. We cannot be certain that more drilling will not cause damage, but then we can be certain of very little in this life. You cannot be certain that when you drive your car you won't end up in a bad accident either. Besides, I think that the drilling companies have learned a great deal about how to ensure that accidents are very unlikely.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 11:47 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147729 wrote:
Of course if there is an accident, that would be bad. But if we did nothing because if we did it there might be a bad accident we would do very little. We certainly would not drive our cars, for example. Well, all we can do is depend on past experience. We cannot be certain that more drilling will not cause damage, but then we can be certain of very little in this life. You cannot be certain that when you drive your car you won't end up in a bad accident either. Besides, I think that the drilling companies have learned a great deal about how to ensure that accidents are very unlikely.



The question may then be, Should we willing to take these risks in Alaska before it has become absolutely necessary? Have we reached the point where it is necessary?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 11:57 pm
@wayne,
wayne;147745 wrote:
The question may then be, Should we willing to take these risks in Alaska before it has become absolutely necessary? Have we reached the point where it is necessary?


Well, I suppose the answer lies is how great we think the risk is, and what the benefit is that we expect. (Cost/benefit analysis). Apparently we think the answer is that the benefit is worth the cost. After all, there are also risks in not doing it. We then have to import more oil, and there are costs there too. Even environmental costs. So, we have to factor those in as well.
0 Replies
 
StochasticBeauty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:06 pm
@kennethamy,
The reality is that we don't know how much oil is under the ocean. We have estimates and leading experts give approximations but it's all speculation. This asymmetry in information gives a lot of people incentive to drill.

The *long-term* costs outweigh the short-term benefits. The problem is everyone is thinking short-term. Why do you ask? Because our incentive system is flawed.

The focus needs to be on sustainablility.

Oil rigs leave the potential for distaster; wasting a lot more than a few million in capital investment.
Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:57 pm
@StochasticBeauty,
StochasticBeauty;150422 wrote:
The reality is that we don't know how much oil is under the ocean. We have estimates and leading experts give approximations but it's all speculation. This asymmetry in information gives a lot of people incentive to drill.

The *long-term* costs outweigh the short-term benefits. The problem is everyone is thinking short-term. Why do you ask? Because our incentive system is flawed.

The focus needs to be on sustainablility.

Oil rigs leave the potential for distaster; wasting a lot more than a few million in capital investment.


I think they are focusing on sustainability SB. We aren't there yet though, and we need something to tide us over.

In reality it isn't so much a choice between drilling and not drilling, as it is between drilling and the oil companies extracting oil from the tar sands of alberta, which only becomes cost effective when the price of gas rises.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:28 pm
@kennethamy,
I see desperation on the horizon.
0 Replies
 
StochasticBeauty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:39 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;150431 wrote:
I think they are focusing on sustainability SB. We aren't there yet though, and we need something to tide us over.

In reality it isn't so much a choice between drilling and not drilling, as it is between drilling and the oil companies extracting oil from the tar sands of alberta, which only becomes cost effective when the price of gas rises.



Humans are extremely adaptably; the amount of investment that would go into oil rigs could easily go into developing public transportation systems and improving urban economics.

I work about 20 miles from my house -If I had to I would bike or carpool. Infact, many websites namely craigslist have carpool sections: all of this coming out of "finding a better way". Thankfully, we're now in an information economy.

The next 10-20 years will be new era in transportation. The greatest stressors come from supply lines (trucking) and heating. As the price of gas rises people have more incentive to *create/resort* to subsitutes/alternatives thereby lowering the equilibrium price. This is good because maybe exxon will put it's money into all that algae we've been hearing about or another sustainable medium.

As per Obama permitting off-shore drilling I think he is focused on other issues and "letting this one slide". His major obligations are clearly related to 1)labor/unemployment 2)healthcare.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 02:34 pm
@StochasticBeauty,
StochasticBeauty;150454 wrote:


As per Obama permitting off-shore drilling I think he is focused on other issues and "letting this one slide". His major obligations are clearly related to 1)labor/unemployment 2)healthcare.


How could that be true? If he had "let this slide" he just would have done nothing. But he opened up some areas that were not opened up previously. So, he did not just let anything slide.
StochasticBeauty
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:18 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;150582 wrote:
How could that be true? If he had "let this slide" he just would have done nothing. But he opened up some areas that were not opened up previously. So, he did not just let anything slide.



If you truly think the president has the absolute to make decisions based on his own true moral accord your wrong. Obama is only a *puppet*; corporate interests far outweigh his ability to take charge. He had too many corporate sponsers that got him where he is to begin with. When your president you can only pick certain battles and this is one he has obviously chosen not to. The obvious question arises but why? Well when all is said and done the people he feels obligated to are likely the Cornell West's and to shaken *once* middle class who care much less about oil drilling than there own immediate livelihood. The old saying comes to mind "pick you battles". All he is doing is giving the companies permission -thereby increasing our domestic supply and their mkt prices.

"The proposal - a compromise that will please oil companies and domestic drilling advocates but anger some residents of affected states and many environmental organizations - would end a longstanding moratorium on oil exploration along the East Coast from the northern tip of Delaware to the central coast of Florida, covering 167 million acres of ocean."
Obama to Open Offshore Areas to Oil Drilling for First Time - NYTimes.com
0 Replies
 
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 03:58 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;146721 wrote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Reversing a ban on oil drilling off most U.S. shores, President Barack Obama on Wednesday announced an expansive new policy that could put new oil and natural gas platforms in waters along the southern Atlantic coastline, the eastern Gulf of Mexico and part of Alaska.

A welcome and astonishing decision. It makes me rethink my view about Obama.

i support the drilling of oil. It will create more jobs, and help the economy.
Perhaps you can tell me why this is bad?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 06:42 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;150608 wrote:
i support the drilling of oil. It will create more jobs, and help the economy.
Perhaps you can tell me why this is bad?


It isn't bad, although it is not good enough.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 12:19 am
@kennethamy,
Just this week there was an accident on an oil rig in the gulf of mexico, resulting in an oil spill ,the extent of which is not yet known, 11 lives lost. What will the environmental damage be?. If this isn't bad, what is?
StochasticBeauty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 01:20 am
@kennethamy,
Another problem with oil spills is people often argue that oil is watered down which is true. The unfortunate/complicated reality is going up the food chain fish like tuna and swordfish which we consume contain extremely high quantities of oil/contaminants. This manifests itself through woman giving milk to their babies but we have alternates; many oceanic mammals such as whales don't have alternative formulas so they *will* be greatly threatened.

Economists come up with fiscal approximations; for example, how much would it cost for us to single-handedly create pollination in america. This number is in at least the billions - luckily we have nature (i.e. bees,birds etc) to subsidize it for us. When you really start to look nature does a lot of the work for us at a much greater oppertunity cost than most are aware of.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 03:58 am
@wayne,
wayne;155974 wrote:
Just this week there was an accident on an oil rig in the gulf of mexico, resulting in an oil spill ,the extent of which is not yet known, 11 lives lost. What will the environmental damage be?. If this isn't bad, what is?


There are terrible automobile accidents all the time. Many lives are lost every year. Should we get rid of automobiles?
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 04:30 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;155997 wrote:
There are terrible automobile accidents all the time. Many lives are lost every year. Should we get rid of automobiles?


So we should just accept continued damage to our seashores year after year as the price of never having to walk farther than the driveway.

Maybe we should get rid of automobiles. Given the choice of what we are losing to keep them ,I'd happily ride my bicycle.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 04:37 am
@wayne,
wayne;156003 wrote:
So we should just accept continued damage to our seashores year after year as the price of never having to walk farther than the driveway.

Maybe we should get rid of automobiles. Given the choice of what we are losing to keep them ,I'd happily ride my bicycle.


You might, but others might not. Especially those who require automobiles in order to make a living. Not everyone uses an automobile (or a truck, or a bus, or an airplane) for recreation. And, of course, that is only the surface. Oil is an essential ingredient in most of the things we use. Telephones, computers. You name it, it requires oil as an ingredient or to make it. By the way, that includes your bicycle.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 04:42 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;156004 wrote:
You might, but others might not. Especially those who require automobiles in order to make a living. Not everyone uses an automobile (or a truck, or a bus, or an airplane) for recreation. And, of course, that is only the surface. Oil is an essential ingredient in most of the things we use. Telephones, computers. You name it, it requires oil as an ingredient or to make it. By the way, that includes your bicycle.


There is concept called moderation, of which few Americans seem to be aware. We are far along the road to satisfying our wants to the detriment of our needs.
The answer to our problems cannot be found in another oil well.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 04:55 am
@wayne,
wayne;156006 wrote:
There is concept called moderation, of which few Americans seem to be aware. We are far along the road to satisfying our wants to the detriment of our needs.
The answer to our problems cannot be found in another oil well.


Well. that may be so. But it is not our need for oil that is fueling the need for more oil. It is the need by China, India, and other second and third world countries that are trying to get themselves up to speed. I would advise you address your complaints to them.
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Apr, 2010 05:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;156007 wrote:
Well. that may be so. But it is not our need for oil that is fueling the need for more oil. It is the need by China, India, and other second and third world countries that are trying to get themselves up to speed. I would advise you address your complaints to them.


That's a distortion, America has long used a disproportionate share of the world's oil.

Keep the status quo up til we die, then let somebody else worry about it. That about sums up the predominance of attitude in this country.
 

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