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It is logically impossible to know the past

 
 
perplexity
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 01:24 pm
@Aristoddler,
Aristoddler wrote:

Why is there tension, when all we are doing is sharing our ideas?


Because of the conflict.

-- RH.
0 Replies
 
Aristoddler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 06:53 pm
@NoAngst,
Understandably so, but hard feelings can be left behind, since this is just a friendly method to express our ideas and be heard while listening to others.
0 Replies
 
perplexity
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Oct, 2006 07:46 pm
@NoAngst,
I find that if the requirement is for calm, then it is most effective to think and to speak of the calm.
0 Replies
 
Ragnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 07:58 pm
@NoAngst,
Aristoddler wrote:

Why is there tension, when all we are doing is sharing our ideas?


I've really no idea.
perplexity
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 03:39 am
@Ragnell,
Ragnell wrote:
I've really no idea.


Some of us are addicted to conflict.

The stimulative effect of aversion is much the same as that of desire, and like any drug the effect wears off, so some are driven to seek more and more to be averse to.

I am not meaning to accuse or confess to that being exactly the case in this instance, just that I have found it worthwhile to bear this in mind.

-- RH.
0 Replies
 
Justin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Oct, 2006 08:28 am
@Aristoddler,
Aristoddler wrote:
There seems to be a bit of tension here.

Why is there tension, when all we are doing is sharing our ideas?
It's not as if we were pushing a final sale on someone here...a difference of opinions is going to happen a lot on a forum dedicated to debate. It's supposed to.
A civilized debate will yield better end results, and less bad blood than heated arguing.


Yes, I agree with Aristoddler. Let me also add that with all these branches of Philosophy that we can debate and argue, the most important is that of human relations. Without human relations, nothing else matters. It's where we are, here an now.

Also keep in mind that out of confrontation comes communication. However, the confrontation still involves the practice of human relations which is most important of all.

Once again, we cannot possibly see how another person perceives something without first walking a mile in their shoes. I understand that having empathy is very difficult but it's all part of human relations.
0 Replies
 
Ragnell
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:02 pm
@NoAngst,
Listen to the man with the facts, guys. Get a grip on those cold shoulders of yours.
0 Replies
 
Electra phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Dec, 2006 05:12 pm
@NoAngst,
NoAngst wrote:
I have always been troubled by a vague sense of fraudulence whenever historians claim to know the past. For example, there are no less than five definitive accounts of the Spanish Armada, Macaulay's among them. One historian says that the Duke of Medina Sidonia was puerile. Another says he was a dupe of the King. Another says he was an incompetent fool. Another says he was a tragic hero. And yet another says he was quite simply insane. Each historian in turn points to the same body of evidence, but draws a different and incompatible conclusion. So how are we to decide which account is the truth of the matter? Simpy by considering the probative weight of the evidence each historian provides, determining in our own mind which explanation accounts for the most facts or otherwise is the most compelling, and then make a decision? Isn't this tantamount to saying that it is rather the readers of hisotry and not historians who ultimately determine the past? It seems to me that mere reader assent cannot and should not settle the matter, any more than a patient should settle on his own disease from a number of alternative diagnoses. Shouldn't it rather be the experts who decide these things? So why don't they? I know that history is not like casting out nines in arithmetic, but to say that we can know the past without knowing the truth strikes me as being logically impossible. I do not think that a demand for certainty in historicism is not a demand to be like chemistry or physics, i.e., to demand the rigor and precision of the laboratory in an area where it is simply not possible. I do not expect history to be science. But this does mean that the interpretative excesses of historians do not go far beyond what the subject matter admits. And I think this is why historians disagree about the past more than on the fact of the matter; they all take the same body of facts and then manipulate and characterize those facts to best serve their purpose. In the end, they're doing no more and no different than what a literary critic does when he insists what the correct meaning of a play or poem should be. This is not to say that an appreciation of the past cannot be gotten from reading history; it is to say that I am not looking for appreciation; I'm looking for the truth. And as long as historians play employ emotive language and interpretive license, I am not going to get it. Nobody is. And there's the pity. Because getting history right is a hell of a lot more important than getting King Lear or Jabberwocky right.






You might find this website interesting:

History Is A Weapon

I found it searching for an online version of the afterword in The People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. This book was written with the premise of presenting an alternative view of history from the perspective of minorities, etc.

A People's History of the United States

It appears the afterword is not in this online version, but to encapsulate Zinn says there is no such thing as facts presented by an historian. There is only judgement. Judgement of which facts are important, for one. In this book, he found it important to illuminate "themes" which were missing in traditional histories.

"There were themes of profound importance to me which I found missing in the orthodox histories that ever dominated American culture. The consequense of those omissions has been not simply to give a distorted view of the past but, more important, to mislead us all about the present."

This seems to represent a larger idea that any type of manifested work, system, society, or other invention can only reflect to a precision the level of enlightenment of its creator and is somewhat tainted by a certain filter of personality or prejudiced interest.
0 Replies
 
Aristoddler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Dec, 2006 03:56 pm
@NoAngst,
Finally some enlightening thoughts on this matter!

The themes are fact...but those are also subject to interpretation.
Although the theme is indeed factual.
Truth within a lie.

This thread needs to be brought back to life now.
But before posting, please read the links Electra offered, as well as her post.
Thanks Electra.
0 Replies
 
Refus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 02:48 pm
@NoAngst,
The position in the present may, if positioned in the right way, tell exactly of the past. For instance, the position of 4 dots may explain alot, if you decode it it might be a file, but then you'd have to have a very smart decoder. Hard to say if that is the case of the universe, but if you want to know something, then perhaps it is possible. You just need focus on the future-past-present entailing.
0 Replies
 
Aristoddler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 05:49 pm
@NoAngst,
The position in the present may, if positioned in the right way, tell exactly of the past as it was recorded or experienced by someone who didn't know all the details.
The grassy knoll...prime example.
In fifty years, how will that story be told?
What about the survivors of Waco? How will that story unfold in the next fifty years?
Focus will help you discern what is believable from what is imaginable, but will it help you determine the truth?
Refus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jan, 2007 01:09 pm
@Aristoddler,
Was that an attempt of an insult?
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 May, 2007 11:44 am
@Aristoddler,
Aristoddler wrote:
The position in the present may, if positioned in the right way, tell exactly of the past as it was recorded or experienced by someone who didn't know all the details.
The grassy knoll...prime example.
In fifty years, how will that story be told?
What about the survivors of Waco? How will that story unfold in the next fifty years?
Focus will help you discern what is believable from what is imaginable, but will it help you determine the truth?


I know I was born, and that is a past event. I know there was an American Civil War. And that was a past event. I know there was a president of the United States named, John Adams. And that was a past event. I know John Kennedy was assassinated. That was a past event. I pretty well know he was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald.

There are certainly things we don't know about the past. But how does that show that it is we know nothing about the past, let alone that it is impossible to know about the past, let alone, that it is logically impossible to know about the past. That is as if someone were to say that since I don't know everybody's name, I know nobody's name; or since I don't know all the capitals of the South American countries, I know none of the capitals of the South American countries.
0 Replies
 
l0ck
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Aug, 2007 07:48 pm
@pilgrimshost,
every time someone reads someone elses writing it gets interpreted differently
all history is extremely exadurated due because realitys are percieved uniquely as individuals and each story gets interpreted differently
and again it comes down to if you want to believe it or not.. which is your decision.. you just either choose to believe it or not.. theres no logical decison its just your way of arriving at your truth.. be it through logical evidence or not
0 Replies
 
Professer Frost
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Apr, 2008 08:39 pm
@NoAngst,
So it is impossible to know the past clearly, objectively, and consistently? Then what is to stand between us and complete historical nihilism? Think about this: there are two sources of historical knowledge, namely human memories of events and the portions of those events that were ultimately written down and became (semi-) permanent historical records. Now if someone comes along who has both the ability and the desire to forcibly change these sources (like O'Brian in the third part of Orwell's "1984") then what is to keep us from living in a grey and dingy world where a Big Brother-ish authority is the only constant? I don't know. But perhaps someone here can come up with intelligent refutations of O'Brian's arguments for relativism? Yes? Well I'm looking forward to hearing them!
- Professor Frost
P. S. I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread but my ability to wrap my mind around serious topics while reading online is severely limited. Which brings up a question: Is there some way to print out a whole thread at once? If so is there some way to make the thread consist of just text (i.e. only the names of users who made the posts and the texts of the posts themselves?) I'd appreciate any help you all could give me on this.
Thanks, PF
chandler phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2008 12:18 am
@Professer Frost,
Professer Frost wrote:
So it is impossible to know the past clearly, objectively, and consistently?


Ultimately the problem lies in what we MEAN when we use words like KNOW, Reality, etc. Are you asking about past as in histories or past as in personal past? Because either way one might argue that we can't "know". Because who's to say these memories haven't been implanted into our brains and they never actually happened? There are a number of possible objections right?

Regarding 1984 (great book Very Happy) I would say that it's certain possible (it wouldn't be contradictory) to say that our histories are all lies. It just seems more probable for me and for everyone else that our histories are not lies. Then again, probability doesn't really justify our belief...so...hmmm...

I guess to answer you're question...that's a good question. Smile
0 Replies
 
de Silentio
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2008 12:48 pm
@NoAngst,
Quote:

But perhaps someone here can come up with intelligent refutations of O'Brian's arguments for relativism?


O'Brian's reletivism requires double think. Without it, changing the known, directly experienced truth is impossible. For example, moving from being at war with a nation one day and bombarding the people with propaganda, to saying that we were never at war with that nation and are at war with another nation requires one to totally disregard their use of reason, which seems to be the goal with double think.

------

I agree with chandler, 1984 is a great book and you asked a good, relevent question. It's been a while since I read the book, so I would love to hear that I am wrong and why.
0 Replies
 
incubusman8
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2008 05:03 pm
@NoAngst,
NoAngst wrote:
I have always been troubled by a vague sense of fraudulence whenever historians claim to know the past. .

Historians NEVER claim to know the past. They offer a perspective.
0 Replies
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Apr, 2009 05:47 pm
@pilgrimshost,
Maybe it is that we can only know basic details of the non-observable of the past. Like we know that Augustus turned the Roman republic into the Roman empire, and we know that he defeated his political rivals in the process. We also know that the 13 colonies revolted against the British empire to create the United States. What I'm saying is that maybe we can know the generality of the historical event, but very rarely can we know if the elementary details are true.

What role should the principle of parsimony play in all of this?
avatar6v7
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Apr, 2009 03:19 pm
@hue-man,
even the basic facts you mention are disputable- Augustus was following on the heels of other autharatarian roman leaders- you could argue he just made it official. Also the 13 colonies- it is debatable as to whether it constitutes a 'rebellion' as they were already made up of various dissident religous sects, free wheeling oppurtunists and criminals sent there or fleeing justice. Indeed the colonists were essentially running away and there was fairly light authority due to logistical constraints- especially in the early days. Indeed it was only when the colonies grew larger, and Britians fleets and wealth were great and advanced enough to start asserting control over the colonies that they 'rebelled'. Arugably all they were doing was stoping those they had left behind taking what wasn't really theirs. Now I don't neccersarily support these views, but I have made a reasonble case to dispute even the very basic assertions.
0 Replies
 
 

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