5
   

Americans can now be locked away on the basis of fear

 
 
Mon 17 May, 2010 11:44 am
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled Monday that federal officials can indefinitely hold inmates considered ''sexually dangerous'' after their prison terms are complete.

The high court in a 7-2 judgment reversed a lower court decision that said Congress overstepped its authority in allowing indefinite detentions of considered ''sexually dangerous"
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/05/17/us/politics/AP-US-Supreme-Court-Sex-Offender-Law.html?_r=1&hp

It was not that long ago that we derided the Soviets for doing pretty much the same thing. The way is now clear for the American Government to lock away revolutionaries on the basis that they are protecting the public from rioting. There is no way that only sexually dangerous people will be treated this way for long, the same logic will be used to support expanding the class of scum that this treatment is right for.

This is a very sad day for America.
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 12:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
Very sad indeed.

Why don't they allow indefinite detentions of captured Islamic extremists and radical jihadists?
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Mon 17 May, 2010 12:32 pm
@hawkeye10,
Scalia and Thomas, JJ are right in their dissents.





David
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  5  
Mon 17 May, 2010 12:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
The law allows the government to seek civil commitment of sexually dangerous persons, just as the government has the right to seek civil commitment of mentally ill people who pose a danger to the public. There aren't a whole lot of "revolutionaries" who are being locked up right now, despite the fact that the government has always had that right, so I'm not sure why you think this is some kind of slippery slope.

And for those who are really interested, the case is US v. Comstock. Links are here.
djjd62
 
  4  
Mon 17 May, 2010 12:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
it's because obama's a socialist, maaaaaaaan

he's gonna turn you all into pinko commie slaves, maaaaaaaan

geez joe, don't you read the news
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Mon 17 May, 2010 12:43 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

...the government has the right to seek civil commitment of mentally ill people who pose a danger to the public.


Have they thought about applying the law to Nancy Pelosi?
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Mon 17 May, 2010 12:47 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Very sad indeed.

Why don't they allow indefinite detentions of captured Islamic extremists and radical jihadists?


They do.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 01:34 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
The law allows the government to seek civil commitment of sexually dangerous persons, just as the government has the right to seek civil commitment of mentally ill people who pose a danger to the public.


as we saw with the Soviets the term "mentally ill" is extremely fluid when it comes to justifying locking people way. The slippery slope expectation is born not only for what they did, but for what our own government has done with their flimsy justification for war as well as the assassination and internment of so called terrorists.

Tools will always be used when it suit a need, we know where the souping up of this tool leads.
parados
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 01:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
as we saw with the Soviets the term "mentally ill" is extremely fluid when it comes to justifying locking people way.

So, you are arguing that the constitution has no meaning? And the courts are more than willing to lock up anyone without evidence if the government simply says they are "mentally ill"?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 02:11 pm
@parados,
Quote:
So, you are arguing that the constitution has no meaning? And the courts are more than willing to lock up anyone without evidence if the government simply says they are "mentally ill"?


I agree with the police using profiling to do their work of finding the bad guys, I am not in favor of the state using profiling to decide who to lock away. Ya, the Constitution has little meaning because the State is not made to follow it. We have trials where individuals are held to account by juries. These guys were already subject to that process, the state already had its crack at sex offenders. The constitution does not allow for the state to void the result when it is deemed not good enough. This talk about public safety is the go to excuse by the government for its extra constitutional actions, and nobody is going to try to "fix" the illness which pretty much shows what a scam the mental illness claim is. We dont criminalize mental illness, we try to help those who suffer from it.

This case goes to show that the "values of America" are not really values, they are rationalizations for what we want to do. Profiling is evil, except when it is not. The mentally ill need help, except when we dont like them and so decide they should rot. America is all about freedom, but we don't need to practice it.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Mon 17 May, 2010 02:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
as we saw with the Soviets the term "mentally ill" is extremely fluid when it comes to justifying locking people way. The slippery slope expectation is born not only for what they did, but for what our own government has done with their flimsy justification for war as well as the assassination and internment of so called terrorists.

It's clear that the Soviet Union locked up political dissidents on spurious claims that they were mentally ill, but then the Soviet Union also had a judicial system that accorded very few rights to people who were committed involuntarily to mental institutions by the state. That's not the case here. As the supreme court's majority opinion noted:
Quote:
The statute provides that the prisoner "shall be represented by counsel" and shall have "an opportunity" at the hearing "to testify, to present evidence, to subpoena witnesses on his behalf, and to confront and cross-examine" the Government's witnesses. §§4247(d), 4248(c).
If the Government proves its claims by "clear and convincing evidence," the court will order the prisoner's continued commitment in "the custody of the Attorney General," who must "make all reasonable efforts to cause" the State where that person was tried, or the State where he is domiciled, to "assume responsibility for his custody, care, and treatment."

Those are significant safeguards that militate against the arbitrary usage of the state's power to commit people involuntarily.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 03:05 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Those are significant safeguards that militate against the arbitrary usage of the state's power to commit people involuntarily.
considering that the state has no way to know who will offend again, that all they have his the profile groups likelihood, this is completely arbitrary. It would be the same as locking up every Mexican looking person in Arizona because we know from the profile group that there is a high chance that a Hispanic person is criminal (illegal alien). I am not in favor of that, we would find out about that particular person. If we cant find out then we don't detain them, the individual has the right to freedom unless we can prove that they should not. Proving that that persons peer group tends to be bad does not meet the standard....freedom is too important to let such sloppiness stand.
Mame
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 03:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
You're talking apples and oranges - a known criminal, especially a DANGEROUS one, is quite different from an illegal alien whose only crime is to enter your country without authorization.

I'm sorry, but I previously worked in the criminal justice system. Some people are beyond redemption, and when you compound that with violence, it's a whole different story.

I would rather that some (inmates) have fewer rights in order to protect the many (society) than to allow the fewer more rights and the many remain at risk. At least until we have a better solution. A violent offender should have less rights than an innocent. They've already transgressed society (usually many, many times) while we are just innocently going about our business.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 03:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
And actually, we DO know who is likely to re-offend! Take a look at some of the rap sheets.
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Mon 17 May, 2010 03:43 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
considering that the state has no way to know who will offend again, that all they have his the profile groups likelihood, this is completely arbitrary. It would be the same as locking up every Mexican looking person in Arizona because we know from the profile group that there is a high chance that a Hispanic person is criminal (illegal alien).

You're not very good at this analogy thing, are you.

Yes, it's true that the state has no way of knowing who will offend again, but so what? If that were a sufficient reason to prevent the state from committing someone to a mental institution, it would also be sufficient reason to prevent the state from locking them up in a prison, since a big part of incarceration is to prevent criminals from committing more crimes.

In any event, one of the biggest indicators for future behavior is past behavior. We lock up criminals because we believe that they are, all other factors considered, more likely to commit other crimes. Likewise, we commit mentally ill persons who are a danger to the community because they are, all other factors considered, more likely to be a danger to the community in the future. Each case, however, is judged on its own merits. That's a far cry from stigmatizing an entire ethnic group based on ill-informed prejudice.

hawkeye10 wrote:
I am not in favor of that, we would find out about that particular person. If we cant find out then we don't detain them, the individual has the right to freedom unless we can prove that they should not.

That's exactly what the statute does now.

hawkeye10 wrote:
Proving that that persons peer group tends to be bad does not meet the standard....freedom is too important to let such sloppiness stand.

Are you saying that the statute judges sex offenders as a group? How do you arrive at that conclusion?
djjd62
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 04:11 pm
@Mame,
case in point the guy who cut off the bus passengers head, he's not guilty by reason of insanity, he's likely to be on the streets again in a few years, if he takes his meds he's probably gonna be fine, but i worked with a guy who had schizophrenia, he'd get feeling better and stop taking his meds, happened over and over again

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 04:48 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Are you saying that the statute judges sex offenders as a group? How do you arrive at that conclusion?
because what is being done is comparing this guy to others..the only thing they have to go by is what other guys like him tend to do...the behaviour of his peer group. The state can say "there is a 89% likelihood that he will re offend" but there are some gangbangers in lock-up who we can say the same thing about...shall they get indefinite prison terms too?

This is not a psychiatric order where if it goes against them the person is going to get treated for insanity and will probably be out of the hospital in months or years, we are talking about locking people up in prisons because they might break a law with every intention of keeping them there for the rest of their lives. Not. The . Same. Thing.

a much higher standard of public safety should apply here...instead it is weaker.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 05:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
the following is interesting, both because the supreme court went the other way back then, and because it shows how the state will if allowed lock up people who should not be locked up. Unless the state can predict with near certainty who will and who will not commit a future act the state must allow the individuals to be free. The state, not being able to predict the future behavior of sex offenders, has no business taking individual freedom on the claim for the need to maintain "public safety".
Quote:
The fate of the so-called Baxstrom patients is illustrative of these problems. In 1966 The United States Supreme Court ruled that 650 people incarcerated in “maximum security” clinics for the criminally insane were to be transferred to “ordinary” psychiatric hospitals. All 650 had remained in detention after expiration of their sentence as they were considered too dangerous to be released. After four years only 20% of these people were reported to have displayed aggressive behavior, whether inside a psychiatric hospital or outside of it. This implies that 80% no longer displayed dangerous behavior.
http://www.janpols.net/Chapter-7/3.2.1.html
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Mon 17 May, 2010 06:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
showing that once the state gets this tool it will use it aggressively
Quote:
Queensland was the first State in Australia to successfully introduce legislation, the Dangerous Prisoners (Sexual Offenders) Act 2003 (DPSOA), allowing the continued detention and supervision of offenders beyond the expiration of their sentence. Since the enactment of the DPSOA the numbers of offenders on orders has steadily increased. To date 93% of all applications made under the DPSOA have resulted in an order being made and in the last four years of the operation of the DPSOA this has been 100%. As at 19 June 2008 there are 53 offenders on DPSOA orders either in the community or detained in correctional facilities.
http://www.correctiveservices.qld.gov.au/Publications/News_and_Events/News/HighRiskoffendersReportJune08.pdf
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Mon 17 May, 2010 06:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Proving that that persons peer group tends to be bad does not meet the standard....freedom is too important to let such sloppiness stand.

I agree completely. Incarcerating someone because of what you think they might do strikes me as a complete violation of the rule of law and the civil rights we all too often take for granted. If someone gets ten years in jail and serves that term, their debt to society is paid. We routinely let murderers out of prison knowing that there is a significant probability they will murder again. The idea is that if your debt is paid, you are returned to society in good standing. Denying someone that because you think they might commit another crime is a serious failure of the system.
 

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