5
   

Americans can now be locked away on the basis of fear

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 09:47 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
The fact that something is traditional does not keep it from being immoral. That's a logical fallacy ("appeal to tradition").
who has argued otherwise? Not I.

Humans are both moral and immoral, you may think your **** don't stink but you are not all good yourself. We could lock everyone up, and that is where we would be if we followed your logic.

Can you use law to change human nature? I doubt it. I think you can drive the unwanted behaviour underground so that although it happens it is less visible. I think sometimes you can cause individuals to repress the parts of themselves that they are told are bad, to almost always tragic result. But you can not change people with law.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 10:13 am
@hawkeye10,
simple possession of child pornography is a tough one for me, it might be enough to satisfy someone and keep them from acting on their urges (a canadian offender has been offering this explanation in regards to artwork (non photograph) and writing)

on the other hand the production and support by consumption of child pornography is reprehensible
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 10:25 am
@djjd62,
It already, according the the federal government of the US, is enought make a person so dangerous that they are made to forfeit their freedom indefinitely. And we are just getting started, these refuse to release laws around the world are less than a decade old...........where do you think we are headed if citizens to not demand an end to these programs?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 10:47 am
Quote:
Sexually Violent Predator (SVP) Civil Commitment Laws

In the early 1990s, states began to enact a specialized form of the traditional civil commitment statutes as a sex offender management strategy. Generally speaking, traditional civil commitment statutes are designed for individuals with disabling psychiatric difficulties who pose a significant threat of harm to themselves or others.

Through civil proceedings, these individuals can be placed in psychiatric/mental health facilities for safety and treatment purposes until such time that they are stabilized and able to be safely transitioned to the community.

Lawmakers later modified commitment laws in order to incapacitate a very narrow " and presumably highly dangerous " class of sex offenders commonly known as “sexually violent predators” (SVPs).3 The SVP civil commitment laws, however, differ from the more traditional provisions with respect to the criteria that are considered as sufficient for commitment and in terms of the point at which persons are subject to commitment.
For the purpose of the SVP proceedings, the commitment criteria commonly include the following4:

The commission of a qualifying sexually violent offense (e.g., aggravated sexual assault, first degree sexual abuse of a child, forcible rape);
• Diagnosis of a mental abnormality or personality disorder (e.g., pedophilia, antisocial personality disorder) that predisposes the individual to engage in sexually violent behavior;
• The predisposing mental abnormality or personality disorder causes the person to have significant difficulties controlling such behavior; and
• The individual is consequently likely to commit additional sexually violent acts if not confined to a secure mental health facility.

The SVP commitment process is generally triggered for convicted sex offenders who are approaching release from prison. Those offenders who are believed to pose a high risk to reoffend and who may meet the criteria for commitment are screened and referred for eligibility consideration. If, during the civil proceedings, offenders are determined to meet the prescribed set of criteria, they are designated as SVPs and committed indefinitely to a secure mental health treatment facility until deemed suitable for release to the community.

Currently, approximately 20 states have specialized commitment laws, and over 4,500 sex offenders are placed in secure civil commitment facilities nationwide (Gookin, 2007).
http://www.csom.org/pubs/legislative_trends.pdf

it should be noted that SCOTUS just allowed the state to keep these people in actual prisons as well, where as before they have only been allowed to be kept in "mental health facilities" that are defacto prisons. This should drastically reduce the cost of these programs, and thus encourage their use.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 10:58 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:
not at all sure i understand this. Have these offenders been convicted of a felon and served their time and then not released? or or these offenders transferred to a mental health hearing where they are deemed by psychiatric professionals to be unsafe to themselves or others and "held/treated" in a forensic facility with court reviews?

The latter.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:03 am
@joefromchicago,
well Joe, that throws a different light on the subject.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:11 am
@joefromchicago,
False, the Feds always planned to keep these people in prison. They are currently moved full time to a prison hospital. This is not a dedicated mental health facility.

Quote:
"We're working with the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) to see how we implement" the plan, Gonzales says.

So far, officials have referred 11 federal inmates for possible commitment after their time is served, the BOP says. The offenders would be treated at a prison in Butner, N.C
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-12-13-feds-sex-offenders_x.htm
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:21 am
@dyslexia,
Quote:
well Joe, that throws a different light on the subject
.

Where the rubber meets the road, no it is not.

Quote:
A 2005 report by the Vermont Legislative Council concluded that Minnesota "is essentially warehousing sex offenders in mental health facilities at a cost far higher than that to incarcerate them in prison."

In most ways the MSOP is indistinguishable from prison, with cell blocks and lockdowns for searches. Residents earn modest wages cleaning bathrooms or making signs for state office buildings. They can also work out in the gym, read in the library and visit a computer room, though it lacks Internet access.

The MSOP counts work, classes and exercise as treatment because each is therapeutic, said assistant commissioner Kooistra, who added that the number of breaks is something "we're going to look at." But he said that the breaks are more than the term implies.

"What's going on during that time is a lot of assessment, a lot of team meetings," Kooistra said. "There's an increase in patient activities," such as work and recreation. "It's not like everybody's watching TV."

Administrators say that constant supervision also is part of their treatment, done mostly by "security counselors" trained to guard patients and document day-to-day behavior.
http://www.startribune.com/templates/Print_This_Story?sid=19615459
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:30 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

False, the Feds always planned to keep these people in prison. They are currently moved full time to a prison hospital. This is not a dedicated mental health facility.

Yes it is.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:37 am
@joefromchicago,
You are wrong

Quote:
The Federal Medical Center (FMC) is part of the Butner Federal Correctional Complex, in Butner, North Carolina. FMC Butner is an administrative facility that houses male inmates of all security levels. An adjacent satellite prison camp houses minimum security male inmates
http://www.bop.gov/locations/institutions/buh/index.jsp
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:41 am
@hawkeye10,
It's a medical center. It houses people who have been declared unfit for trial for reasons of insanity, like John Hinckley, Jr., or who have been otherwise deemed a threat to the public's safety. What more do you want?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 11:54 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
It's a medical center. It houses people who have been declared unfit for trial for reasons of insanity, like John Hinckley, Jr., or who have been otherwise deemed a threat to the public's safety. What more do you want?
it is for inmates of prisons....the states at least have the decency to make new prisons for these guys and slap and "mental health facility" shingle on it so that we can pretend that it is not a prison.

these guys did their prison time, it is argued that they are then committed to the mental health system. Keeping up the pretense of doing what we say we are doing would be nice.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 12:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
These people are deemed to be a danger to the public. That's why they're held in secure mental health facilities. Those facilities are often part of prison complexes. But that still doesn't make the people who are civilly committed into prisoners.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 01:44 pm
@joefromchicago,
when a person is locked into a Department of Corrections building which is surrounded by barbed wire, administered by DOC staff, they are a prisoner. Your attempt to rationalize your way out of the obvious is humorous.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 01:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Correctional facilities have medical facilities, dental facilities, laundries, kitchens, bathrooms, and barber shops.

The fact that it is inside of a correctional facility does not make a laundry not a laundry.

It's a mental hospital and it's part of a correctional facility. What's the problem?
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 02:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

when a person is locked into a Department of Corrections building which is surrounded by barbed wire, administered by DOC staff, they are a prisoner.

According to those criteria, the warden is a prisoner too.

hawkeye10 wrote:
Your attempt to rationalize your way out of the obvious is humorous.

Your attempts to mask your hypocrisy on this subject are equally humorous.

Let's face it: you don't have any problem with locking up violent criminals in jails on the suspicion that they may commit more violent crimes in the future. You just don't like this particular statute because it applies to sex offenders, and you don't think that there's anything wrong with committing sex offenses.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 02:03 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
It's a mental hospital and it's part of a correctional facility. What's the problem?


as I have said, those prison facilities are for prisoners, and the state is claiming that these people are committed to the mental health system.

The state can not have it both ways, they can not claim that they are not prisoners, and then in every way treat them as prisoners.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 02:05 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Let's face it: you don't have any problem with locking up violent criminals in jails on the suspicion that they may commit more violent crimes in the future. You just don't like this particular statute because it applies to sex offenders, and you don't think that there's anything wrong with committing sex offenses.


the critical factor is not that these guys did sex crimes, it is that they served their time and the state refuses to release them from prison. My position would be the same no matter what crime they had been originally convicted of. I keep coming back to sex offenders because the state most often abuses those who are not liked, and sex offenders are for the most part despised. But we are only as free as the most despised citizen is, so I care.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 02:10 pm
@DrewDad,
the Forensic unit in Colorado is located on the grounds of the State Hospital nowhere near a prison. It is a totally locked facility as is warranted by the nature of it's population. It is administered by the State Dept of Hospitals and Mental Health, not by the state Depart of Prisons.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Tue 18 May, 2010 02:17 pm
@dyslexia,
there is a wide variety in the state programs, but they generally make some effort to treat committed sex offenders differently from prisoners. Every inch they take away from treating them as convicts should be applauded. However, the SCOTUS as just OK'ed keeping them in the prison system, which is much cheaper, and is totally wrong.

It costs on average $150.000 a year to keep a confined sex offender in the mental health system, which is 3 to 5 times what a prisoner costs to house, at least that discourages the practice.
 

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