Does art take away from life?

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

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We don't as yet have complete theories which account for aesthetic appreciation.
I have one - too much money not enough brain.

Yeah, well I don't agree with you, but within the last 50 years especially, monetary value has become part of a work of art's function.

Warhol- 'Making money is the only art now'
Emin (on explaining the objects at Frieze)- 'I stuck a picture on an ashtray and sold it for lots of money.'

I actually like both Warhol and Emin a lot, and see a lot of conceptual value.

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@farmerman,

Yes, I'm in basic agreement. My point was only to show that claims of privileged status are not exclusive to modern art only. Ionus has demonstrated that the other side is no different in that regard: at the same time that those who derive enjoyment from contemporary art are accused of elitism, those who enjoy landscapes over abstraction are claimed to be better than those who do not. I'm reminded of a gem by Stanley Hoffman: "There are universal values, and they happen to be mine."

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@Shapeless,

Ionus seems to make no effort at understanding the artist or their context and medium. He isnt a stupid person (IMHO) so his ignorance at art seems more colloquial than a countereleitism. His is the school of Frank Rizzo and Sarah Palin. When he strikes out, he strikes out at an entire country rather than a single artist whose work escapes him.

I get under his skin because Im sure I embody the left wingers with educations who have somehow given him problems over the years. Thats not my problem.
Im only having my two cents displayed for what its worth. I do notice that Ionus never argues details, he only argues values and feelings. In that hes almost turned the entire left/right positions around. We lefties are supposed to be the bleeding hearts not the right wingers.

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@farmerman,

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When someone starts a thred with a premise that is so outrageously simpleminded

The simple minded see things simply Gomer. Maybe it is only simpleminded to you. The question posed transcends time and national boundaries, yet you argue it is art in the rich west therefore it must be art. Most of it has as much value as a wierd dress at a fashion show. People are supposed to have their minds expanded by this crap when all it is really is confused people trying to be fashionable.

Why dont the poor in the third world think this is great "stuff" ? Because it is rubbish through and through designed for those who are gluttonous by nature. Fat arse, child molester, art nouveau...same thing...sick mind off on a tangent.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

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I just wonder why the aesthetic attitudes we encounter within art don't permeate every day life more with the same amount of cultural validity.

Because some people have real feelings and real comtemplation every day of their lives, they dont need to wonder what some whacko meant by getting drunk and throwing paint on a canvas. They are living their lives fully, not clutching at any stimulus that might help them feel alive or explore their own existence anymore than they do everyday.

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@Ionus,

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Why dont the poor in the third world think this is great "stuff" ?

Thats stupid even from you. The poor anywhere are too busy staying alive to allow them spare time to devote to aesthetics .The first thing that rises after subssistance is met is art and music. Almost ALL the big collectors in the world are from Asian or Mid East countries.
Waht does that do for your ideas about art and its culturl effects?

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Because it is rubbish through and through designed for those who are gluttonous by nature. Fat arse, child molester, art nouveau...same thing...sick mind off on a tangent.

I think your bubble is a little off center there anus.

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@farmerman,

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Im sure I embody the left wingers with educations who have somehow given him problems over the years

I am very much left wing on many issues. I just dont believe an individual can ignore collective wisdom like most left whingers who want it all changed now exactly as they say. Is it inherent to your criticism of me that you have an education and I dont ?

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he only argues values and feelings

Probably escaped your notice, but we are discussing art. If you dont argue feelings and money, what else is left ?

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When he strikes out, he strikes out at an entire country

I specifically did that because you have done it to me. Is it fair or not ?

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@farmerman,

PS, I keep forgetting to mention but, your anti-Americanism aside, you are aware that the pre form of the abstract expressionist movement was a primarily European movement that AMerica only caught up with maybe 2 decades later? If you werent aware (and Im confident that within 50 years or so you will overturn some of your "cherished beliefs "of this)Today though, Itd help if youd know a little more about stuff that you opine and try to dump on .

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@farmerman,

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The poor anywhere are too busy staying alive to allow them spare time to devote to aesthetics .

And that is the level of art that applies to all of us. They also dont eat rubbish foods and dont employ sex aids. You can measure how sick a culture is by what it does with its extra survival capabilty.

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The first thing that rises after subssistance is met is art and music.

They are an intricate part of their survival. I am quite fond of music and art. All this bullshit some are paying millions for, I will not call art.

So do you "get" it Gomer ? Do you look at a train wreck or a finger painting and think that makes me understand life better....perhaps your life needs improving....I suggest getting back to the basics.

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@farmerman,

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PS, I keep forgetting to mention but, your anti-Americanism aside, you are aware that the abstract expressionist movement was a primarily European movement that AMerica only caught up with maybe 2 decades later? If you werent aware (and Im confident that within 50 years or so you will overturn some of your "cherished beliefs "of this)Today though, Itd help if youd know a little more about stuff that you opine and try to dump on .

So your only problem with anti-americanism is that it should be anti-europeanism ? Do you remember being anti-australianism to me ? No ?

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@Ionus,

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So do you "get" it Gomer ? Do you look at a train wreck or a finger painting and think that makes me understand life better....perhaps your life needs improving....I suggest getting back to the basics.

Well ANUS give me a visual example of what you are all pissed at? Let s discuss it and see where it is that youre all fucked up. Im not gonna quote what Hitler said about Entartete Kunst thatd be to easy a comparison .

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So your only problem with anti-americanism is that it should be anti-europeanism ? Do you remember being anti-australianism to me ? No ?

Do you have trouble comprehending English? Or are you just trying your hand at phrase spinning again? Its a stupid comment no matter what.

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@farmerman,

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Its a stupid comment no matter what.

You think that no matter what it is stupid to say the rest of the world doesnt get synchronised upside down wet arse waving ?

http://blogfiles.kiptonart.com/uploaded_images/BlueGirlwithWine_oil-738954.jpg

I bet this rubbish just enthralls you to lill itty bits.

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@Ionus,

GET ahold of yourself ANUS. The Tim Burton show WAS A FUCKIN JOKE!!. Notice how the Blue girl sorta looks like The people in "The NIghtmare Before Christmas"? NOW, were you to avail yourself of Burtons body of work as a director and designer, youd see that hes an important figure in entertainment ART.

As far as "Blue Girl" , remember, BAbe Ruth also held the strike out record for a while. HERES a qwebsite about Tim Burtons art. You will see that hes a cartoonist who made it big time.

http://www.timburton.com/

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@farmerman,

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The Tim Burton show WAS A FUCKIN JOKE!!.

And here i was thinking you thought this stuff was art. At least we agree on that. Now try this one Gomer...

http://dsbigham.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/36334.jpg

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Ionus, if you don't 'see' the value, then that's fine, but do you REALLY think this stuff would have existed, for the majority of the 20th century at least, JUST because it is 'fashionable'? People DO utilize art for fashion, but not to the extent you're suggesting.
Your arguments are ridiculous.
I hope no-one thought this was what I was thinking in starting this thread.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

I have said repeatedly that it is a product of a bored mind going to extremes when other pleasures like food and sex are readily criticised for being excessive then why not art ? People who have real lives with real problems dont need to look at a train smash sculpture or a lousy finger painting by a drunk and wonder about the deeper meaning. People with real lives dont feel compelled to like it because the Forth-Sythe-Smiths like it. Unless you are planning on being upwardly socially mobile, what is the use of all the pretense that a piece of garbage is an expression of man's inner contempt for nature and a tittilising expose of humanity's inhumanity to humanity.

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for the majority of the 20th century at least

Maybe we should call it the sick century.

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Your arguments are ridiculous.

Your arguments are predictable and so trendy as to be read off of a card handed out at the latest avante garde art show.

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@Ionus,

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And here i was thinking you thought this stuff was art.

Tim Burtons ART was done as a joke at MOMA. It was a big show that people attended wearing costumes of several of his big movies. Art isnt so dictatorial that its entire being is without humor and everone knows that artists always enjoy a good party. Are you attempting to develop a list so that its ok to ridcule works that YOU CONSIDER DEGENERATE? Whats wrong with the Bigham? Ive seen bad attempts at conveying the styles of Pollock and many make it and many dont.

I dont think ID wanna take on an entire show of that kind of work,though.

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@farmerman,

http://www.tate.org.uk/collection/T/T00/T00867_9.jpg

I like much of Dubuffet, much of it gets you to think a bit about the subject. This ones at the TAte and must be seen up close and in context of his body of work that includes some music to play along with the pieces.

I think that youre looking for a defined line which doesnt require any work on your behalf to engage in ridicule . The "Anus lists" so to speak. Thats an easy trip and is one fraught with problems because you always will be standing around with your thumbs up your ass attempting to look intelligent when you should just let yourself go an enjoy the abstraction, the color, the work, and only after some work on your part, you can sound a little more intelligent.

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@Ionus,

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People who have real lives with real problems dont need to look at a train smash sculpture or a lousy finger painting by a drunk and wonder about the deeper meaning

If all kinds of srt dont make it into a "busy life" then you have no soul. Quick to embrace religion as a rudder for your life, yet somehow you are a dull piece of zinc when it comes to anything aesthetic.

Besides, who ever said that there IS a deeper meaning to abstract art. SOmehow that seems to be a fear of you Luddites, that , because you dont "get it" its really not there. Some art does have a meaning that we must work on but much of it is just the fun of playing with paint and rock or bronze. If you look at Rothkos work when he was commissioned to do a series of works for a big restaurant in NYC, he worked and worked on it like it were a big engineering study. He thought about the space and the light and he tried to celebrate the form and color of how his work and the space went together. No other "Deeper" meaning than that. I think that, with respect to much abstract art yer just missing the boat there ANUS.

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@farmerman,

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missing the boat

fark

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Does art take away from life?

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