14
   

Does art take away from life?

 
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 05:46 am
@farmerman,
Yeah, in art I am largely talking about 'the arts'.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 07:17 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
Quote:
What are you hinging this on? Where do you derive this sense of purpose?
It is based on several assumptions that I would take as reasonable
1) that art is based on an appreciation of beauty
2) that beauty is instinctive
3) that instincts are for steering our lives in the right direction for survival

My disdain for excessive art is based on one assumption :
1) that people have built in variation and a certain percentage of the time this is a "failed" variant.

Food and sex also have a strong instinctive base, in fact beauty may ultimately come only from these two only. Excess in food and sex is obvious, why wouldnt art be comparable to sex and food with luxury and obsessive impulses equally applicable ?
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:17 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
Quote:
But why do you specifically need art for this, why can you not apply the same type of thought to your own life?


The simple is answer is that you can. When you need to get downtown you can take a cab or you can take the metro. Having more than one option doesn't make any individual option obsolete, does it? Just because you prefer the cab doesn't mean the metro no longer has any reason to exist.
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:58 am
@plainoldme,
The MFA in Boston is a delightful way to spend a day. I adore their giftshop.
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:03 am
@Shapeless,
Shapeless wrote:

Quote:
But why do you specifically need art for this, why can you not apply the same type of thought to your own life?


The simple is answer is that you can. When you need to get downtown you can take a cab or you can take the metro. Having more than one option doesn't make any individual option obsolete, does it? Just because you prefer the cab doesn't mean the metro no longer has any reason to exist.


Yeah, I agree with that, but people don't do they?
I just wish it was a position that circulated more.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:50 am
@Ionus,
Maybe curmudgeonly about a kind of blanket indictment of much art - not that I've never done that. I made fun of most process art for years and years. (There was a guy whose name I won't mention that used to go up on his roof and hold a glass over precise places on paper to produce solar burns in a grid. That struck me as the height of hilarity.) I skip over much art much of the time.. but I agree with Farmer on this: "The rules in art are that there are no real rules. Many artists whose work we find difficulty "getting" spent a lot of time entering their own journeys of some kind of deconstruction and they also approach it with great discipline." I learned to get some process art - and other kinds that I found difficult, or uninteresting - and I might not roll my eyes at the solar burns guy with the same verve as I did before if I saw the work now.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 02:59 pm
@Sglass,
Me, too.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 08:58 pm
@ossobuco,
People can also be taught to "get" sickly deserts and fatty foods or whips and anal sado-masochism. These are the result of an excess of the basics. If you balance your life so the basics are always the sweetest desert than you are a better person IMO. Applied to art, music and colour are the basics, mangled train smashes and lousy finger paintings are the sicko end. We readily criticise people for being overweight and for wanting sex with children, why not criticise the excessive end of art ? It is far better for a person to experience a sunset in the bush or to teach themselves painting then it is to stand around in a gallery arguing about the "artists" view of reality as demonstrated by a train smash when all they were really demonstrating was a love of money and a sick personality.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 06:33 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
why not criticise the excessive end of art ? It is far better for a person to experience a sunset in the bush or to teach themselves painting then it is to stand around in a gallery arguing about the "artists" view of reality as demonstrated by a train smash when all they were really demonstrating was a love of money and a sick personality.
I would expect nothing less from you. For some reason youve managed to state rules that are simple , easily understood, and totally full of it.

Artists have no duty to "bring beauty" to your world. If thats all you look for then theres a whole new world of introspection and reflection that I challenge you to observe or hear in the arts.Your attempts at ascription to an artists meaning is a bit of our own Frank Rizzos opinion of the giant clothes pin sculpture outside the stock center in Philadeplphia. (He didnt get it either)
I personaaly cant stand musicals because I get bored when plot conflicts must be resolved in song (I dont get it, its not a problem of the genre, its ME, and maybe I am a bit homophobic but Im trying to understand why I get turned off at musicals).
When you missed the political cartoon that is Guernica or structural shorthand of Brancussi, then it is YOU(my fear of musicals may transfer to your fear of modern art--is it too metrosexual anus?).

s far as your other statement, I doubt that any real artists spend a lot of time expecting to "fool the art loving world". Those that do (And I admit they exist) are usually outed as frauds within a few years. Emir de Hory, Han Van Meegeren, Otto Whacker,Victor Lustig,Claude SChuffenecker,Ernst Durig all can give you pleasant hours of reading enjoyment of how they first concieved their frauds and what spurred them on (hint: it was the age old pursuit of an easy life). Only Han van Meegeren thought that he was a great artist and he was merely trying to "stick it" to the world of critics.

Real art is troubled over and produced in stages of an artists growth (or decline in the case of Pollock). To me, all good work is worth at least consideration. Making an honest effort to seek out and understand such work (like osso says) embodies what someone once said that
"The next greatest thing to genius is the appreciation of it"

I may not fully understanding (or even liking) everything done by Matisse, but I must understand that , with his work, there is something important going on.
Artists like Mark Rothko or Cody Norman have each attempted to adress one aspect (ONE) of the world of art appreciation. They worked on their responses to mass culture or mass production , each in their own way. I, when I can, try to get the "libretto" of someones work rather than just walking by with some dismissive comment.
Art appreciation never was for everyone, that why the world of really passionate collectors has always been folks with means and a different sense of taste than yours and mine.
Ive seen showings of Steve Martins art collection and theres a theme that surrounds his own passion of collecting. It isnt mine, and isnt yours probably, but each artist responds to a stimulus in their own unique way and each viewer responds in their own way.Martins collection picks up on this quite well.
My biggest response in viewing much abstract art is how it fits its environment of dsiplay. Thats a little like "picking a sofa to match a painting" but, Im sensitive to how the WPA muralists and the Mexican muralists of the 40's and guys like Rothko and Johns all work to fit their own idea to fit a space and display either a worldview , or, (as you said) display some beauty in a drab area like a public building.

There are so many levels in which we can appreiate or at least validate art of many workers . Its not a matter of
"I know what I like ism", its really a matter of dialogue among the viewer, the artist, and the context (space, time of production, topic etc).

The works that MAtisse and Picasso were always doing to "Out art" each other was, in many cases collaborative. Matisse would have an idea and then Picasso would trump him with going one level better,(and vice versa). Not lknowing this takes some of the richness of experience of someones appreciation of the works that Matisse (and the other fauves) were working. Matisse said it himself that "All Im trying to do is play with expression in shape and color" He was searching for his own shorthand, like the writing of ELmore Leonard,("If it looks to much like writing, then remove half of it till it just talks to you") Matisse was looking to remove as much as he could yet still retain the essence of his view. For this he gets a lot of flack from people whove never even known what his message was about. Art appreciation is the display of ignorance in its many forms, especially abstract art.
In closing, I dont believe we can view modern art from a stnadpoint of a "tabula rossa", theres too much baggage in time ever since the invention of the camera. Giving up with a proclamation of "its crap" or just being dismissive is kind of sad. Especially when one claims to follow intellectual pursuits with passion.

'Science is a discipline pursued with passion, Art is a passion pursued with discipline"

Im on record to have NEVER liked the works of Helen Frankenthaler. However, at my advanced age I can finally say that "I get it", Now, at least my dismissive attitude is built on a muh higher level of scholarship, and (I have to admit) there are several works of Frankenthaler that I actually do like.

The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 06:42 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

People can also be taught to "get" sickly deserts and fatty foods or whips and anal sado-masochism. These are the result of an excess of the basics. If you balance your life so the basics are always the sweetest desert than you are a better person IMO. Applied to art, music and colour are the basics, mangled train smashes and lousy finger paintings are the sicko end. We readily criticise people for being overweight and for wanting sex with children, why not criticise the excessive end of art ? It is far better for a person to experience a sunset in the bush or to teach themselves painting then it is to stand around in a gallery arguing about the "artists" view of reality as demonstrated by a train smash when all they were really demonstrating was a love of money and a sick personality.


Maybe you should go back in time and go live in communist russia, then maybe you'd see why that isn't such a great argument.
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 06:46 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

People can also be taught to "get" sickly deserts and fatty foods or whips and anal sado-masochism. These are the result of an excess of the basics. If you balance your life so the basics are always the sweetest desert than you are a better person IMO. Applied to art, music and colour are the basics, mangled train smashes and lousy finger paintings are the sicko end. We readily criticise people for being overweight and for wanting sex with children, why not criticise the excessive end of art ? It is far better for a person to experience a sunset in the bush or to teach themselves painting then it is to stand around in a gallery arguing about the "artists" view of reality as demonstrated by a train smash when all they were really demonstrating was a love of money and a sick personality.


This is a set of ridiculous analogies, we only view those actions as bad in terms of their consequences:
Being overweight gives you heart disease...
Having sex with children mentally destroys an innocent being...

Making highly conceptually/formally abstract art does what exactly?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:16 am
@farmerman,
So many words to simply say you think you are better then me. Ah, Gomer, what a sad world it would be without you to remind me how lucky I am. So if the majority of the human race dont "get" a piece of art there is something wrong with them ? Remember the mime doing glass wall impersonations ? Only some USAians "got" it, and not many at that. What about the rest of the world ? They thought you had lost your minds. What about the artistic ability of upside down swimming where the olympics now have a porno show in the pool - who gave us that ?

It is so typical of an amero-centric view of the world that they have incredible artistic ability and the world must have something wrong with it.

Quote:
Real art is troubled over and produced in stages of an artists growth (or decline in the case of Pollock). To me, all good work is worth at least consideration. Making an honest effort to seek out and understand such work (like osso says) embodies what someone once said that
"The next greatest thing to genius is the appreciation of it"

Oh, puhleese....what dribble...you start of by saying they are geniuses therefore they must be apreciated...well that shoots me down in flames...I thought they had to be appreciated to be genuises even if they are only proclaimed such by fools in a bidding war.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:17 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
Quote:
Maybe you should go back in time and go live in communist russia, then maybe you'd see why that isn't such a great argument.
Enlighten me. How does that apply to my argument ?
0 Replies
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:20 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:

3) that instincts are for steering our lives in the right direction for survival


This is not proven to be true; I don't know too much about evolution, but I know that exaptions occur within evolution as well as adaptions... it is possible that some instincts emerged as side products of other adaptive traits. We don't as yet have complete theories which account for aesthetic appreciation.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:24 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
Quote:
Making highly conceptually/formally abstract art does what exactly?
Just exactly how far off reality do you have to go to "see" a painting done by a druggie by throwing paint at a canvas as art ? Encouraging wierdo's to produce rubbish does nothing for the world's real problems. It is a measure of how hard a countries people work as to how much jumk the rich can afford.

If you think you have to like crap because it is fashionable and everyone in the dress cricle just loves so-and-so, then fine, fill your boots. Dont expect me to join you in this temporary insanity phase of art. Venus de milo will be appreciated in another thousand years which is more than I can say for modern sculptures. You want to be modern dont you, therefore you have to like it.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:25 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
Quote:
We don't as yet have complete theories which account for aesthetic appreciation.
I have one - too much money not enough brain.
Shapeless
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:42 am
Ionus wrote:
It is far better for a person to experience a sunset in the bush... then it is to stand around in a gallery arguing about the "artists" view of reality as demonstrated by a train smash


Ionus wrote:
So many words to simply say you think you are better then me.


Bingo. That, I sincerely believe, is what debates about art always come to: so many stones flying around so many glass houses.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 07:53 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Maybe so, I have never heard anyone compare arts to such weird **** as you.
BETTER? maybe so, maybe not.
I likee art, it makes me appreciate all the levels of existence. The start of this thread is the screaming example of "I DONT GET IT", youre just a hanger on the train ANUS.
I love reading your nonsense, its so fuckin linear and simple minded. You try , you really try.If you wish to remain densified to all sensory input, you seem to be on the right path. AFTER ALL, it is you who said

Quote:
IMO. Applied to art, music and colour are the basics, mangled train smashes and lousy finger paintings are the sicko end. We readily criticise people for being overweight and for wanting sex with children, why not criticise the excessive end of art ?
Welcome to ANus world of simplicity and "beauteeful" sunsets. Where complexity need not apply, and pure idiotic passion substitutes for brain cells.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 08:09 am
@Shapeless,
Quote:
Bingo. That, I sincerely believe, is what debates about art always come to: so many stones flying around so many glass houses.
When someone starts a thred with a premise that is so outrageously simpleminded, and then several hangers on (like Anus) try to beef up the ridiculous argument as if it had merit, than someones gotta take the time and say "THIS THREAD IS TOTAL BULLSHIT , IF YOY DONT GET IT_DONT PARADE YOUR IGNORANCE AROUND ON A FLAGPOLE".
I see it as an opportunity to discuss point-counterpoint. If someone like Anus wants to interpret disdain of this ignorance as elitism, that stands to healthy reason. If he doesnt have the frame of reference with which to make a decent criticism then I expect his criticisms to gradually escalate from "Child Sex v modern art" to Modern Art was the secret vice of many NAZIS..
He needs to be clled out for the asshole he is. I dont think tha his past 3 posts deserve anything but ridicule (which is, after all, a common form of artistic criticism)
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 09:22 am
@farmerman,


farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Bingo. That, I sincerely believe, is what debates about art always come to: so many stones flying around so many glass houses.
When someone starts a thred with a premise that is so outrageously simpleminded, and then several hangers on (like Anus) try to beef up the ridiculous argument as if it had merit, than someones gotta take the time and say "THIS THREAD IS TOTAL BULLSHIT , IF YOY DONT GET IT_DONT PARADE YOUR IGNORANCE AROUND ON A FLAGPOLE".
I see it as an opportunity to discuss point-counterpoint. If someone like Anus wants to interpret disdain of this ignorance as elitism, that stands to healthy reason. If he doesnt have the frame of reference with which to make a decent criticism then I expect his criticisms to gradually escalate from "Child Sex v modern art" to Modern Art was the secret vice of many NAZIS..
He needs to be clled out for the asshole he is. I dont think tha his past 3 posts deserve anything but ridicule (which is, after all, a common form of artistic criticism)


I admit that this thread is certainly one of my worst, but I still don't think the basic premise was entirely moronic. I just wonder why the aesthetic attitudes we encounter within art don't permeate every day life more with the same amount of cultural validity. Not that anything authorises my position but I went to art school and made objects I considered to mean something for a long time, critique is healthy.
If you notice, I don't actually agree with anything Ionus said.
I certainly don't agree with Ionus's form of criticsm, but if he thinks it is worthless then he has the right to say so (Ionus it might help if you could back your argument up a little better, not that I can really talk, currently)
In regards to what you said- yes, with a lot of established artists I take the same position as you, but I think we have to be careful in canonising them like that. It is possible to make up A LOT of 'bullshit' about something to explain it as culturally pertinent, we should be careful about what theorists as well as what artists we champion; I'd resist the urge to think that it just sorts itself out.
 

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