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Should we eliminate high school sports for budget?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 04:54 pm
@hawkeye10,

Just speaking for myself, Hawkeye,
I have very little respect for anything issuing from the United Nations.





David
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 05:24 pm
@squinney,
I apologize. I didn’t know you were a woman. Thanks for not insulting me, as certain other members of this forum (notably sports fans) might have done. I appreciate your civility.

I am not a bigot. My friends include several guys who played football in high school (one of whom even played football at the university he attended), none of whom ever bullied anyone. That’s why I admire them.

I’m not unreasonable. I definitely have no problem with traditional sports-centered P.E. being retained for the athletic students as an elective. But I’m unalterably opposed to forcing nonathletic boys who have no interest in sports being forced to take traditional sports-centered P.E. Some physical educators have recognized that nonathletic boys were shortchanged (not to mention treated rather badly) under the traditional approach. There now is a movement to reform P.E. for the sake of those students. I’m a big supporter of the PE4Life program. Read the following link, and you’ll see why.

http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-22-fall-2002/personal-best

You say that bullying is part of life. Well, I could easily say that wife beating and child abuse are also part of life.

Sports should be viewed as a form of recreation, not a phony test of “manhood” to be imposed upon virtually every boy, regardless of whether he’s interested in sports or not. Certainly, throwing a ball is not evil; but there is a negative culture associated (but not intrinsic) with certain sports that denigrates nonathletic males. You say that higher math was traumatic for some students. My wife is a retired high-school math teacher. She never looked down on any students who ever had any trouble in math. But I’m convinced that there have been many boys’ P.E. coaches who look down on slightly built boys as effeminate and have viewed them with contempt. (Have you ever noticed that when a boy throws a baseball poorly, he’s said to throw “like a girl”?) And, believe me, these boys get the message quite clearly. It certainly was my experience. How do you think a 10-year-old boy feels when he’s told that he’s unmanly simply because he’s not good at a sport? When I was a teenager, an incompetent psychologist sent me to a judo instructor, a white man who had played university football. Years later he told me that he considered only athletes to be “real men” and denied that nonathletic men could be courageous. He even denigrated Andrei Sakharov, the “father of the Soviet H-bomb” who became a courageous human rights activist and publicly condemned the government of his country for its record of horrendous human rights abuses. No wonder I always felt like an outsider in his judo classes.

Just so you will know that I’m not a crank living in the past, for decades I had pushed my P.E. memories to the back of my mind. Then about three years ago I joined a health club and started working with a personal trainer on a bodybuilding program. The difference between my health club experience and my P.E. experience has been as great as night and day. What accounts for my anger is that I’m now having to struggle with diabetes and sleep apnea as I try to get enough sleep, which is essential in bodybuilding; but I am making progress. I definitely know what I was missing in the useless P.E. classes that I was required to take; and the psychologist should have sent me to a gym instead of to the judo instructor, who was (and is) the walking epitome of machismo in all of its ugly aspects.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 05:49 pm
@joefromchicago,
Thank you. You make my case. One school day during my eighth-grade year, I was forced to play in a basketball game in my mandatory P.E. class, even though I didn’t even know how the game was played. Was I ever told how to play basketball in any of my P.E. classes? No, I wasn’t. Needless to say, the experience was humiliating; and I was made to feel like I was a terrible person deserving no consideration whatsoever. Decades later (well, nearly three years ago), I started working with a personal trainer at a local health club on a bodybuilding program. (The experience has been great. Not only am I benefiting physically, but it’s even emotionally therapeutic. And I’m beginning to look like a jock. Laughing My wife says I already look like one.) Occasionally my trainer would vary the workout routine by introducing me to a sport. One day he showed me how to shoot a basketball. I had assumed that shooting a basketball was just a matter of thrusting the ball towards the hoop. I was amazed to learn that I had been wrong. It’s a skill involving particular wrist and finger movements that has to be learned by repetition over time, like learning how to type. I easily could have learned how to shoot a basketball if I had been taught how. But like I said, there was no instruction in any of the P.E. classes that I was forced to take. The fact of the matter is that the traditional P.E. classes have never actually been taught like academic classes have always been taught, but don’t tell that to all the people who are opposed to P.E. reform and demand that ALL students be required to take P.E. classes that are essentially USELESS to nonathletic kids.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 05:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
I've got news for you. It's quite possible to get into shape without participating in any sports. In fact, there isn't a single sport that exercises all the muscles of the body. In the P.E. classes I was forced to take, no instruction was provided for boys who didn't already know how sports were played; bullying of physically weak boys was tolerated, and sometimes even encouraged (all in the name of sports, mind you); and there was not even any mention of exercise programs, which are the best way for nonathletic kids to get into shape for the reason I just stated above. About two and a half years ago, after some reluctance I joined a health club and started working with a personal trainer on a bodybuilding program; and today (in spite of my negative P.E. experience) I'm a confirmed gym rat. I get more exercise in a single workout session with my personal trainer than I ever did in a single YEAR of mandatory sports-centered P.E.; and I am NOT exaggerating!
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:04 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
I have no use for school spirit when individual “student athletes” become arrogant and start looking down on other students as if they are supposedly inferior to them. I’m not saying this is true of all high-school football players, say; but it definitely is true of some of them. A childhood friend of mine who played football in high school (and is still a big fan) recently told me that most of
his teammates had looked down on all the nonathletic guys at their high school.
Bill, thay have as much right to an opinion, as anyone.





David
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
It was my experience when I was a kid that under the traditional sports-centered approach, the physical fitness needs of the nonathletic kids, especially those who were physically weak or overweight, were completely IGNORED. Please check out the PE4Life program in the last link that I posted as an innovative program that actually promotes physical fitness.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:10 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Neither do I. They seem to be almost useless.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:15 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Sure, they do. I agree with you. But such individuals should not be hired to coach mandatory sports-centered P.E. classes that nonathletic boys are required to take against their will. Would you want a black racist who hated whites to teach a child of yours? And if I were a high-school student today, I would not appreciate being required to attend their pep rallies, which really should be held AFTER SCHOOL.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I went to school in Rockford IL, and during my HS years 4 years of PE was a state requirement.

I hated it with a passion.

But I also used it as a springboard to get into shape, and it
exposed me to sports that I never would have tried otherwise.

Looking back I think it was a good use of my time,
better than more classroom time would have been.


I am appalled that my kids only need to do one year of PE in HS.
U really ARE passionately ANTI-Freedom, true socialist that u are.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:19 pm
@wmwcjr,
wmwcjr wrote:
Sure, they do. I agree with you. But such individuals should not be hired to coach mandatory sports-centered P.E. classes that nonathletic boys are required to take against their will. Would you want a black racist who hated whites to teach a child of yours? And if I were a high-school student today, I would not appreciate being required to attend their pep rallies, which really should be held AFTER SCHOOL.
I was referring to the students who looked down on
non-athletic students.

I never attended any pep rally.
I woud not have been peppy.





David
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:20 pm
David, I gotta hand it to you. You truly are principled in your views. You let the cards where they may fall. You don't play favorites, and that's good. (In my own awkward phraseology, I was trying to make a compliment, which I'm not sure is able to be understood by the reader because words fail me and I'm probably not making any sense.) I'm tired, guys. I gotta go. After all, I just came home from a workout.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 06:36 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
wmwcjr wrote:
And I’ve got news for you: We were not taught anything about sports! No instruction was provided. The assumption seems to have been made that all boys already knew how to play sports. And there was no mention of exercise programs, despite the claim that the purpose of mandatory sports-centered P.E. was to promote physical fitness (which really was a lie).

This was pretty much my experience as well. I was also non-athletic -- although I never really was bullied (I was too widely adored for that). I didn't find PE traumatic, I just found it boring. In the fall, the coaches would throw a football out on the field and tell us to play, in the winter, the coaches would throw a basketball out on the court and tell us to play, and in the spring the coaches would throw a softball out on the field and tell us to play. My school really exemplified Woody Allen's observation that "those who can, do; those who can't, teach; and those who can't teach, teach gym." I don't think, for instance, that I would have been a very good basketball player even with instruction, but a little instruction would have been appreciated, and it certainly would have been appropriate given the educational setting. As it was, on my last day of PE as a senior in high school I vowed I would never touch a basketball again as long as I lived. So much for the educational value of PE. If I have any interest in sports or physical fitness now, it is in spite of any physical education that I received in school, not because of it.
In college, undergraduate, there was a requirement of some designated amount of PE.
Accordingly, I attended the class, tho I never played any ball game.
I remember driving in just to take that class and go home.
Thay wasted too much of my time.
I 'd have preferred to apply that to studying.


I silently swore:
I need to put up with this NOW,
to get my degree as a pass into law school,
but the day will come that thay 'll be begging me for $$$$
as an alumnus; every time that happens: I will remember THIS.





David
0 Replies
 
2PacksAday
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:22 pm
@squinney,
Nice post Squinney.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:02 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

In the fall, the coaches would throw a football out on the field and tell us to play, in the winter, the coaches would throw a basketball out on the court and tell us to play, and in the spring the coaches would throw a softball out on the field and tell us to play.


My experience was remarkably similar. Some of us (not me!) were also on one of the two most competetive high school football teams in South Florida. Some of us understood our main function in PE was to get out of the way.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:16 pm
@roger,
Quote:
My experience was remarkably similar. Some of us (not me!) were also on one of the two most competitive high school football teams in South Florida. Some of us understood our main function in PE was to get out of the way.
the only times I recall my PE teachers throwing a ball out and leaving was when we had to do dodge ball because our outdoor time got rained out. We had all good teachers on the boys side, and the girls said that theirs were good as well.

Which brings up a question: Is PE Co-ed now? If so, that must suck.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 10:43 pm
@squinney,
I don't believe in cliques of any kind, which are stupid. I view (or at least try to view) people as individuals, not as group members.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 03:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
there is an actual argument for PE, which has at times been taken serioulsy

My own experiences, no doubt, have colored my rather jaundiced views on this subject. Nevertheless, I don't have anything against physical education in schools, so long as it's physical education and not just some form of structured recess.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 04:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Which brings up a question: Is PE Co-ed now? If so, that must suck.


Why?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 04:29 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Absolutely. As an adult I learned about exercise physiology and the various pleasures and occasional pains of running, hiking, dance (I'm a fool), rock climbing (fool again, but I get it), and best of all for me, swimming, which I learned at 39; I loved gliding in the Y pool as I got better at it, sort of a dream sequence.

I learned about sports, as opposed to exercise for itself, from three places. Sister Mel at St. Nick's, who pulled the whole class outside in spring and taught us to bat and pitch, both as if we'd not held a bat before, which we hadn't, at least a good bunch of us; my father, helping sans pressure; and newspapers and books.

My dad taught me how to ride a bicycle, how to fish, how to hold a bat (probably after Sr. Mel), and how to hit a golf ball at the local pitch and putt (Rancho Park, which may mean something to old golf fans), took me to horse races since I had gotten fixated on an early kentucky derby.

My high school taught me nothing at all on how-to, a four year waste. I spent my after school time reading compilations of short stories, with a subsection of those books being about sports. So maybe I learned sports from the oldie great writers, who, generally speaking, wrote 'over the top', but kept my interest.

At university I took tennis and swimming, and oh, gads, ballroom dance, had good days and bad at all of them, including a romance out of the dance class. My best tennis day was when I borrowed a class friend's racket (this was in the days of wooden ones) and every ball I hit went right where I wanted it, I was wonderful. Slazenger was the name of the racket. Next time with my own racket, I was goofy again.

Repeating, I don't know how classes are taught now, but primary instruction and some basics about aerobics and strength conditioning could matter, even to the, er, natural athletes.

I've later loved exercise, swimming more than running, when I do it and keep it up for years at a time. I also slough it off easily, have an inveterate laziness that takes hold. Lifetime quandary, depends on which year.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 08:16 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
Why?
Because it would totally destroy the male bonding experience that goes on. I am kinda OK with co-ed schools, though I think that schools perform the education mission better when they are segregated by sex, but PE especially should be segregated. Also, as a teen boy doing weights, swimming, gymanastics, track & Field,basketball and baseball with the girls would have made these activities far less rewarding. Girls and boys are not the same, let's not pretend otherwise.

 

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