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ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:01 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.

From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her
While I think that we tend to treat children like babies and thus hurt them and everyone else,
you with your total refusal to give the child the status of a child go entirely too far.
I have not denied that he was a child; neither did Mrs. Hansen.
I 'm saying that the CHILD was intolerably dangerous.
Therefore, she acted appropriately, defensively.
Accordingly, her house remains intact; that 's what 's important.
I congratulate Mrs. Hansen on good judgment.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:08 pm
@Ionus,
David wrote:
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.
From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her!
Ionus wrote:
You know better than that Dave. Why have you assumed her story is accurate?
I accept the facts as presented, not make up new ones, as I dream them up.



Ionus wrote:
How about she was cruel to the child and he was going to the Police?
How about u get some evidence of that ?





David



[img][/img]
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:08 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I 'm saying that the CHILD was intolerably dangerous.


And I and many others had ask you in the past how do you come to that conclusion?

On the word alone of two women who did not try to get the child any treatment before placing him on that plane?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:10 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I accept the facts as presented, not make up new ones, as I dream them up.


So anyone an claim anything about any child and you just go along with it?

No proof needed at all!
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:25 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
This from the small community in which the adoptive mother lives...

I read the article.
I coud be sympathetic,
if he were simply DIFFICULT, e.g., if he refused to go to school, or to the dentist, etc.,
but threatening arson and actually STARTING FIRES, puts him beyond the pail.
Mrs. Hansen responded logically to intolerable danger.
Self preservation is the first law of Nature.

I have read of or heard of on TV news
too many instances of children (especially non-biological children)
assassinating their parents or adoptive parents, in their sleep.
It is very serious.


Mr. Cannon is free to invite him into his own house and take his chances.





David





Quote:
It was the details of the boy’s return trip to Russia that sparked the most outrage. According to American and Russian officials, Nancy Hansen said she had accompanied the boy on a flight to Washington and then put him on a direct flight alone to Moscow on Wednesday. She reportedly had found a guide over the Internet whom she paid $200 to pick up the child at the airport in Moscow and to deliver him to the Education Ministry with her note. But for residents here, that was hardly enough.

“It’s shocking the community that he went all alone,” said Cheryl Clark, the owner of a small store walking distance from the Hansens’ home. “The adoption agency didn’t just throw him on a plane. They had someone with him. He’s still a baby.”

Adoption experts generally agreed that an abrupt return was cause for concern. The adoption agency that worked with the Hansens, Wacap, the main office of which is in Renton, Wash., released a statement on Friday that said in the 1 percent of adoptions that do not work out, the agency focused on moving the child to a new family, not returning the child. It was unclear whether the Hansens had asked Wacap for assistance.

But, Adam Pertman, executive director of Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute, said the Hansens had a responsibility to seek help. He acknowledged that adoptive parents often have incomplete histories for the children they bring into their homes. And he said that for children like Justin, born Artyom Savelyev and raised in a Russian orphanage for much of his early life, the challenges can be immense.

Institutionalized children in particular tend to act out, he said, with the worst cases involving verbal abuse or children striking parents with heavy objects. “Kids who are beaten and neglected in foster care; kids whose parents drank heavily when they were pregnant; kids with severe disorders " they can cause real disruptions in a family,” Mr. Pertman said.

“You need help if you’re having problems,” he said. “There is this weird lingering myth that love will conquer all. Guess what, it doesn’t in biological families and it doesn’t in adopted families.”

Parents here made a similar connection.

Calvin Cannon, 44, the owner of Torso Shirts for Men in town, said that when he was a foster parent to a teenager a few years back, the two clashed but stuck it out with the help of a social worker. He said the Hansens could have done the same.

“I wish the boy was still here,” Mr. Cannon said, standing outside his store. “It’s bad for the kid, that’s what’s hurtful to me.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/us/11adopt.html?src=mv


BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:27 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Self preservation is the first law of Nature.


One can only hope that the two ladies get a few year sof learning at first hand how to survive in a nice prison.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:31 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Self preservation is the first law of Nature.
WHat has that to do with jamming someone up for not using mediation when they had plenty of opportunity?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 10:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
Self preservation is the first law of Nature.
WHat has that to do with jamming someone up for not using mediation
when they had plenty of opportunity?
It has to do with putting plenty of distance
between u and an arsonist who THREATENED u. That 's what is has to do.





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:00 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
If the adoptive mother thought she was in imminent danger from this child, she should have taken him to an emergency room for immediate psychiatric evaluation. If the child, after psychiatric evaluation, was deemed to be a threat, he could have been hospitalized for further observation and treatment. That would have removed the threat from her home.

Meanwhile, you don't put an allegedly dangerous, mentally disturbed child on a flight to Moscow all by himself--and arrange for a total stranger you met on the internet to meet the child's flight in Moscow. This indicates such bad judgment on the adoptive mother's part it calls into question her appraisal of reality and casts doubt on anything she might report about the child's behavior.

A passenger on the flight to Moscow, who sat with the boy for a while, said the child was anxious and active. He ran down the aisles, but did not disturb anyone. He was obedient and sat down when asked to do so. He sang some Spider Man songs and drew some pictures. Were his drawings of a frightening nature, revealing violence or aggressive fantasies? No, he drew a picture of a plane with waving happy passengers. That doesn't sound like a menacing, dangerous child, does it?



hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:02 pm
@firefly,
yep, only the minimum force required to neutralize the threat is justified.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:06 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Mr. Cannon is free to invite him into his own house and take his chances.



I have a feeling that if the little guy would be place up for adoption to Americans there would be one hell of a long line to adopt the kid.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:15 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
I have a feeling that if the little guy would be place up for adoption to Americans there would be one hell of a long line to adopt the kid


Unfortunately, the adoptive mother probably deprived this child of any chance of that ever happening. Had she contacted the American agency which was involved with this adoption, they might have tried to place the child with another family, since they say that is their policy in the very small percentage of international adoptions that do not work out.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:44 pm
@firefly,
Yes, I know what harm had been done and as an American I feel some shame for it happening.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:57 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Yes, I know what harm had been done and as an American I feel some shame for it happening
This seems to be a regular problem with you, this not knowing where the boundary is between yourself and others. You can not honestly feel shame for something that you had nothing to do with.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:03 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
You can not honestly feel shame for something that you had nothing to do with.


And you do not think that the whole country had not loss face with the rest of the world over the actions of these two women?

I had been "lucky" enough to had talk to a surviver of the holocaust and I also feel after doing so a wish to apology to her for the actions of the rest of mankind.

It may not be logical but it is very human to feel that way.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:09 am
The mother just found someone over internet to take care of the boy in Russia.
She did not know anything about the man. What if he had been a pedeophil?
She has no common sence.
She could have contacted the Russian authorities or the American Embassy to meet the boy. Then the whole thing might have been stopped from the beginning and that she did not want - she just wanted to get rid of him.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:11 am
@saab,
Quote:
The mother just found someone over internet to take care of the boy in Russia
wrong, she found a person who agreed to transport the defective child from the airport to the agency that sold him.
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:37 am
@hawkeye10,
Correct, but she still did not know anything about the man.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:41 am
@saab,
Quote:
Correct, but she still did not know anything about the man.
I think if you look you will find out that this guy was approved by the Russian's to do the transport job, he was certified.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 12:51 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
do the transport job, he was certified.


He was certified to return kids to Russia?
 

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