17
   

ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

 
 
Francis
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:28 pm
David wrote:
It woud be grossly abusive to send him to Russia!

But according to your previous statements, one would think it's a good punishment for arsonist kids..
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 03:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:



Well, since that is a common problem, young children from the age of 3 are taught how to use fire correctly, in the kindergarten.



Christ on a crutch, Walter. We have had kids expelled from school for showing up with an undersized, obvious toy plastic gun. What do you think we would do if one showed up with a match?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 04:09 pm
@roger,
Well, they get lessons how to make fire (adventure pedagogic for under school age children). In kindergarten and primary schools it's done with the local fire brigade as well.

Actually, there are (at least in my state) official lesson plans how to do it.
0 Replies
 
SerSo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 04:22 pm
@firefly,
If sending Russian adoptees back to Russia like a defective product (for whatever reason) appears legal in USA then the Russian government should definitely ban American adoptions in Russia, especially given the number of Russian children killed by their adoptive parents in USA. If not, the question arises how come it is possible? Does there exist a government agency that is supposed to supervise adoptions and help children and their new parents deal with problems?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 04:49 pm
@Mame,
Quote:
3. I don't think it was criminal for her to send the child back by himself. Lots of kids travel, or have travelled, by themselves on airplanes and other modes of transportation - I did myself when I was 4, 7, 8, and 9. He was in an enclosed space, watched by an attendant and picked up on the other side, so where's the danger?
Maybe not, but when I have problems with valuable products I usually am required to contact the firm and get authorization to send it back. One would hope that the handling of an alleged defective child warrants the same due diligence as a defective xbox.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 05:05 pm
@BillRM,
From this article, it sounds like foreign adoptions are finalized in the child's country of origin, before the child even goes home with the adoptive parents.
Quote:
Internationally adopted children of American citizens face many hurdles before they can join their forever families. First the adoptive family has to be approved to adopt and complete all the paper work necessary to adopt including home studies, finger printing and criminal checks. This process can take many months to a year to complete. Then the family has to wait for the adoption process to be completed in the child’s country of origin. The time it takes to complete an adoption varies widely from country to country but it is usually an 18 month to 36 month process. Then after the adoption is completed, the child must be approved for a U.S. immigrant visa to be able to come home to their American families.

http://www.equalityforadoptedchildren.org/legislation/face/why_needed.html


If that was the case with the Russian boy, and the adoption was finalized before the child left Russia, then the adoptive mother had full and total responsibility for him, and had no right at all to return him to Russia, for any reason.


BillRM, the law may have changed since your wife adopted her daughter. I believe that internationally adopted children are now covered under this law which gives them U.S. citizenship as soon as they join their adoptive families in the U.S.

Quote:

Child Citizenship Act of 2000
Effective February 27, 2001, the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 provided that a non-U.S. citizen child (aged under 18) with a U.S. citizen parent, and in the custody of that parent, automatically acquired U.S. citizenship. To be eligible, a child must meet the definition of "child" for naturalization purposes under immigration law, and must also meet the following requirements:

The child has at least one United States citizen parent (by birth or naturalization)
The child is under 18 years of age
The child is currently residing permanently in the United States in the legal and physical custody of the United States citizen parent
The child has been admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident or has been adjusted to this status
An adopted child must also meet the requirements applicable to the particular provision under which they qualified for admission as an adopted child under immigration law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law


So, an adopted child meets the criteria if they have one (adoptive) parent who is a U.S. citizen. The Russian boy would have been considered a U.S. citizen under this law.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 05:08 pm
My niece used to fly to visit me in northern california, from southern california, and she was closely watched by the airline people from point to point, as we requested, until she got well into her teens, her father and I being as careful as we could. And he's a guy who taught her to get around the very large city of Los Angeles by bus and bicycle very early in her life.

This story smells of bad fish, and to me it's the adoptive mother that seems at the least to have gone into hysteria, to the great pain of the child. Really, it's hard to even contemplate the pain of the boy and his needs now.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 05:57 pm
@SerSo,
How many would that be?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 06:01 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
BillRM, the law may have changed since your wife adopted her daughter. I believe that internationally adopted children are now covered under this law which gives them U.S. citizenship as soon as they join their adoptive families in the U.S.


You are right the law had change since my wife daughter Michelle enter the country as a few weeks old infant.

One interesting note is it talk about the child being an orphan and as both the birth parents of Michelle my wife daughter are in fact still alive I am not sure if that law would still apply to her or not.

Or that it would apply to the Russian boy now for that matter if he is not an orphan.

Here is the information below:

Will My Child Be a United States Citizen?
In a word, yes. If the child you adopt internationally enters the U.S. on an IR-3 visa and fits the USCIS definition of “orphan,” your child will be a U.S. citizen thanks to the Child Citizenship Act of 2000.



Want to adopt? Pregnant?
click here On October 30, 2000, President Clinton signed into law H.R. 2883, the Child Citizenship Act of 2000. The new law, Public Law 106-395, amends the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) to permit foreign-born children " including adopted children " to acquire citizenship automatically if they meet certain requirements. This law became effective on February 27, 2001. The precise time that citizenship confers depends on the child’s immigration status upon entering the United States.

To be eligible for coverage under this law, a child must satisfy the USCIS definition of “child” by meeting the following requirements:

The child has at least one U.S. citizen parent;
The child is under 18 years of age;
The child is currently residing permanently in the U.S. in the legal and physical custody of the U.S. citizen parent; and
The child is a lawful permanent resident of the U.S.
If the adoption was finalized in the foreign country and the child has been issued an IR-3 visa, citizenship automatically confers when the child legally enters the United States. If the adoption was not finalized abroad and the child was issued an IR-4 visa (which requires parents to adopt or re-adopt the child in the United States), citizenship confers instantly on the day the adoption is finalized in the United States.

Sound easy? It is, but here’s the catch: Proof of citizenship (such as U.S. passports or official citizenship certificates) is not automatically issued when a child holding an IR-4 visa qualifies for U.S. citizenship under this law. (On January 20, 2004, all internationally adopted children entering the U.S. on an IR-3 visa will automatically receive a Certificate of Citizenship within 45 days of their entry into the United States.)

Parents who want to document their child’s citizenship can apply for a U.S. passport from the Department of State and/or can apply for a Certificate of Citizenship from USCIS. To apply for the Certificate of Citizenship for an internationally adopted child, parents must file USCIS Form N-600 along with a filing fee and required supporting documentation
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 06:13 pm
@firefly,
Firefly here is some more information of if a child is consider an Orphan or not so the laws of auto citizenship would apply.

We would need to know a lot more of the background to this Russian child to know if he would be consider an orphan or not.

If the father were married to the mother or had sign the child birth cert. and is alive then this law would not apply.

Why do they need to made laws so damn complex?

Orphan

The Immigration and Nationality Act provides a definition of an orphan for the purposes of immigration to the United States.

A child may be considered an orphan because of the death or disappearance of, abandonment or desertion by, or separation or loss from, both parents. The child of an unwed mother or surviving parent may be considered an orphan if that parent is unable to care for the child properly and has, in writing, irrevocably released the child for emigration and adoption. The child of an unwed mother may be considered an orphan, as long as the mother does not marry (which would result in the child’s having a stepfather) and as long as the child’s biological father has not legitimated the child. If the father legitimates the child or the mother marries, the mother is no longer considered a sole parent. The child of a surviving parent may also be an orphan if the surviving parent has not married since the death of the other parent (which would result in the child’s having a stepfather or stepmother).

Note: Prospective adoptive parents should be sure that a child fits the definition of ”orphan” before adopting a child from another country, because not all children adopted abroad meet the definition of “orphan,” and therefore may not be eligible to immigrate to the United States.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 08:52 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
From this article, it sounds like foreign adoptions are finalized in the child's country of origin, before the child even goes home with the adoptive parents.
Quote:
Internationally adopted children of American citizens face many hurdles before they can join their forever families. First the adoptive family has to be approved to adopt and complete all the paper work necessary to adopt including home studies, finger printing and criminal checks. This process can take many months to a year to complete. Then the family has to wait for the adoption process to be completed in the child’s country of origin. The time it takes to complete an adoption varies widely from country to country but it is usually an 18 month to 36 month process. Then after the adoption is completed, the child must be approved for a U.S. immigrant visa to be able to come home to their American families.

http://www.equalityforadoptedchildren.org/legislation/face/why_needed.html


If that was the case with the Russian boy, and the adoption was finalized before the child left Russia, then the adoptive mother had full and total responsibility for him, and had no right at all to return him to Russia, for any reason.


BillRM, the law may have changed since your wife adopted her daughter. I believe that internationally adopted children are now covered under this law which gives them U.S. citizenship as soon as they join their adoptive families in the U.S.

Quote:

Child Citizenship Act of 2000
Effective February 27, 2001, the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 provided that a non-U.S. citizen child (aged under 18) with a U.S. citizen parent, and in the custody of that parent, automatically acquired U.S. citizenship. To be eligible, a child must meet the definition of "child" for naturalization purposes under immigration law, and must also meet the following requirements:

The child has at least one United States citizen parent (by birth or naturalization)
The child is under 18 years of age
The child is currently residing permanently in the United States in the legal and physical custody of the United States citizen parent
The child has been admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident or has been adjusted to this status
An adopted child must also meet the requirements applicable to the particular provision under which they qualified for admission as an adopted child under immigration law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law


So, an adopted child meets the criteria if they have one (adoptive) parent who is a U.S. citizen.
The Russian boy would have been considered a U.S. citizen under this law.
HOW about fraud in the adoption process ?
It seems facially unfair, if a grossly defective kid
is foisted on the innocent adopters,
who, equitably stand in the position of bona fide
purchasers for value, without notice.

The fact that the subject matter of the transaction is human,
shoud not leave the adopters open to fraud, with no remedy.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:04 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
My niece used to fly to visit me in northern california, from southern california, and she was closely watched by the airline people from point to point, as we requested, until she got well into her teens, her father and I being as careful as we could. And he's a guy who taught her to get around the very large city of Los Angeles by bus and bicycle very early in her life.

This story smells of bad fish, and to me it's the adoptive mother that seems at the least to have gone into hysteria, to the great pain of the child. Really, it's hard to even contemplate the pain of the boy and his needs now.
Yes; at age 11, I used to take a bus from L.A. to Phoenix and back.

I believe that the woman had good reason to go into hysteria,
if so she did. The important thing is that her house remains intact.
She acted defensively, as well she shoud have.

The kid was mentally defective, before, during and after the adoption.
If Mrs. Hansen had not been deceived by the Russians,
she never woud have let him into her house.

A GOLD star for Mrs. Hansen!
There is good virtue in self-defense!!! http://www.clipartguide.com/_small/0512-0707-3012-5850.jpg



David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:11 pm
@BillRM,
Thanks for all the info, BillRM
The problem with "orphan" particularly applies to children from Haiti. Many of the children in Haitian orphanages have one or both living parents. Parents place them in orphanages because they can't afford to care for them or even feed them. That was the problem, after the earthquake, when people from the U.S. went down there to bring back "orphans"--some of these children weren't free to be adopted, and they weren't sure which ones were really orphans.

The Russian boy probably qualified to be considered a U.S, citizen because he met the criteria for immigration to the U.S. with the adoptive mother. When he was removed from his biological mother's care (due to her alcoholism and neglect) her parental rights were terminated, and he may not have ever had a relationship with his father. The Russians would have cleared all that up before making him eligible for adoption.

I just did some reading on the Internet and adoptions from Russia are finalized in Russia before the child leaves the country. The adoptive parent is generally given only minimal information about the child. The adoptive parent can spend a little time, but not much, with the child before deciding to agree to the adoption. It is not set up to allow people to pick and choose among children. Either you agree to accept the first referral you receive or you must wait for the next one, which could be some time later and involve another trip to Russia for the prospective adoptive parent. There doesn't seem to be any follow-up on the part of Russia after the child leaves the country. If there is any follow-up, it is done by the American agency which was also involved in the adoption as an intermediary. The adoptive parent has full parental rights when they leave Russia with the child--they are now fully responsible for the care of the child.

The woman who returned the boy to Russia had agreed to the adoption of an older child. The Russians didn't give her more or less info than they give about any child--they simply don't give out a lot of info. But, anyone who adopts an older child should be aware that the child may have psychological problems, sometimes substantial problems, simply because of what they might have already gone through in their life. It's really common sense to expect such problems.

The woman was likely told that the child lived with an alcoholic mother until the age of six, and was then removed from her care. So, particularly because she is a nurse, the adoptive mother should have known the child might have some neurological problems if the biological mother abused alcohol during her pregnancy. The adoptive mother knew the biological mother was neglectful, and possibly abusive as well, because the boy was removed from her care. This type of mistreatment and inconsistent mothering does leave emotional scars which do become manifest in behavioral and emotional problems. Being separated from a mother, even a bad one, is also traumatic for a child, and then he had to adjust to life in an orphanage. So, no one really had to tell this adoptive mother that the child might have some psychological problems, she really should have figured that out for herself. In fact, she should have expected him to have some problems.

So, the adoptive mother takes this 7 year old, who already has a lot of emotional baggage, home to a strange country, where they speak a different language, may eat different kinds of food, and where the rules for behavior in that home may differ considerably from what the child is used to. He also leaves behind everything that is familiar to him (and that may even include a sibling). The adoptive mother, and her extended family, may have limited ability to even converse with the child, since they don't speak much Russian and the child doesn't speak much English. Did the adoptive mother think this would be an easy transition for this child? Wasn't she prepared to deal with emotional or behavioral problems? Didn't she realize this child had just gone through another major upheaval in his life by going to live with her?

Apparently the child did begin displaying some emotional difficulties in the form of aggressive behaviors, like spitting, refusing to do things, and trying to hit an adult with an object. None of these things should have been unexpected, all things considered. This was a little boy who had gone through considerable abuse in his life, not an abused puppy you could heal with a little kindness. Just because he had a new home didn't mean this child wasn't angry, or had learned how to appropriately express anger, or had even learned how to trust adults. Apparently the adoptive mother wasn't prepared to deal with any of this, and however she handled it may well have made the situation worse. According to the adoptive grandmother, the adoptive mother got some advice from psychologists, but never actually took the boy to see one. She did not enroll the child in school, so she had no educators who could give her advice, nor did the child have the benefit of being in a relatively structured situation such as school.

And so, the situation kept getting worse, as the adoptive mother felt more overwhelmed and more out of control of the situation. But still she did not take the child to see a mental health professional. This situation, which basically may have been a power struggle between the adoptive parent and the child, escalated until the child allegedly began talking about wanting to burn the house down and hurt people. He was one angry little boy, and he wanted to express that anger and impress his adoptive mother with how powerful he was. This poor 7 year old was trying to get some control over his life and over the adults around him because he still felt mistreated and powerless. And maybe, from his perspective, he still was being mistreated, even in his new home. Did the adoptive mother now realize that both she and this child needed professional help--and it was her responsibility to get it for both of them? No, she put him on a plane with a letter and sent him back to Russia.

This adoption should never have taken place. This woman was simply not prepared to deal with an older child with emotional and behavioral problems--and she should have been aware that any older child she was likely to adopt from Russia would probably have such problems. And she failed to get the child, and herself, any real help to deal with the problems.

The sad part is that this is yet another damaging experience and another rejection for this child. He may never get another chance to be adopted and he may spend the rest of his childhood in a Russian orphanage. And I am sure there are probably many, many other families in the U.S. who would willingly have taken this child off this woman's hands, gotten him the psychological help he needed, and given him a loving home. There are many people who are willing to knowingly adopt a child who has problems. But this woman really deprived this child of a shot at a better life by putting him on that plane back to Russia.

I am glad there is such public outrage over this woman's behavior. I hope she is wracked with guilt and shame for the rest of her life for what she has done to this child. She had options available to her to help her deal with the child's behavior, and she just didn't use them. Instead she discarded a human being as though he was a defective unfeeling inanimate object. She really isn't fit to be a mother. But now she has made it harder for other Americans to adopt from Russia, and made it harder for a great many Russian children to find new homes.







BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:17 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
HOW about fraud in the adoption process ?
It seems facially unfair, if a grossly defective kid
is foisted on the innocent adopters,
who, equitably stand in the position of bona fide
purchasers for value, without notice.

The fact that the subject matter of the transaction is human,
shoud not leave the adopters open to fraud, with no remedy.


Assuming you are correct then a civil tort would be one possible route not however placing a child on a plane to a foreign land and waving good by to him.


A child that under our laws could be consider an American citizen on top of everything else.

The two women had many legal ways to address the situation however it is not a legal or moral to abandon a child and yes it does indeed matter that the subject is a human child!!!!!!
A child is not the same as a dog or a cat and even there you have no right to just abandon those animals.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:27 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The Russian boy probably qualified to be considered a U.S, citizen because he met the criteria for immigration to the U.S.


I am not sure that a non-orphan child who have an American adopted parent could not enter the US even if he might not be consider a citizen on entering the country.

Might be that the child would be view as in the past and allow in and given the same standing as was given to my step daughter as a resident alien.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:28 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Instead she discarded a human being as though he was
a defective unfeeling inanimate object. . . .
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.

From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her!





David
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:40 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.

From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her
While I think that we tend to treat children like babies and thus hurt them and everyone else, you with your total refusal to give the child the status of a child go entirely too far.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:42 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
A 7 year old had malice and you come to that conclusion along with him being mentally defective from where?

Not from any medical experts as the women did not seem to had seek any help from that profession.

So we take the word of two crazy women who had place a child on a plane as the first solution to their problems?

Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:44 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Granted that he DID have feelings,
but thay were of very hostile aggression driven by malice.
He was indeed mentally defective.
From these circumstances, it was necessary to defend herself,
not to just take chances. That 's what she did. KUDOS to her!
You know better than that Dave. Why have you assumed her story is accurate ? How about she was cruel to the child and he was going to the Police ? Where are the facts because anyone can say whatever they like.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 09:49 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
This from the small community in which the adoptive mother lives...

Quote:
It was the details of the boy’s return trip to Russia that sparked the most outrage. According to American and Russian officials, Nancy Hansen said she had accompanied the boy on a flight to Washington and then put him on a direct flight alone to Moscow on Wednesday. She reportedly had found a guide over the Internet whom she paid $200 to pick up the child at the airport in Moscow and to deliver him to the Education Ministry with her note. But for residents here, that was hardly enough.

“It’s shocking the community that he went all alone,” said Cheryl Clark, the owner of a small store walking distance from the Hansens’ home. “The adoption agency didn’t just throw him on a plane. They had someone with him. He’s still a baby.”

Adoption experts generally agreed that an abrupt return was cause for concern. The adoption agency that worked with the Hansens, Wacap, the main office of which is in Renton, Wash., released a statement on Friday that said in the 1 percent of adoptions that do not work out, the agency focused on moving the child to a new family, not returning the child. It was unclear whether the Hansens had asked Wacap for assistance.

But, Adam Pertman, executive director of Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute, said the Hansens had a responsibility to seek help. He acknowledged that adoptive parents often have incomplete histories for the children they bring into their homes. And he said that for children like Justin, born Artyom Savelyev and raised in a Russian orphanage for much of his early life, the challenges can be immense.

Institutionalized children in particular tend to act out, he said, with the worst cases involving verbal abuse or children striking parents with heavy objects. “Kids who are beaten and neglected in foster care; kids whose parents drank heavily when they were pregnant; kids with severe disorders " they can cause real disruptions in a family,” Mr. Pertman said.

“You need help if you’re having problems,” he said. “There is this weird lingering myth that love will conquer all. Guess what, it doesn’t in biological families and it doesn’t in adopted families.”

Parents here made a similar connection.

Calvin Cannon, 44, the owner of Torso Shirts for Men in town, said that when he was a foster parent to a teenager a few years back, the two clashed but stuck it out with the help of a social worker. He said the Hansens could have done the same.

“I wish the boy was still here,” Mr. Cannon said, standing outside his store. “It’s bad for the kid, that’s what’s hurtful to me.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/us/11adopt.html?src=mv

 

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