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ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:08 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Or at the very least she's guilty of child neglect and endangerment.

Aside from the moral and ethical issues of how she treated this
child - there are legal issues: He wasn't eight years old, which is
the cut off for children flying without an accompanying adult- and
he wasn't even on a direct flight - he had to change planes in
Washington DC for a transatlantic flight to Moscow.
I think that the Russians said that he WAS 8 years old at the time of his flight.
Torrey apparently accompanied him to Washington,
where he boarded his direct flight back to Russia.



aidan wrote:
Apparently the adoption was finalized in November, so he was an American citizen,
and as such subject to the rights and protections of children in America.

I agree - this has as little to do with and is as non-indicative of all
adoptive parents as Arteym is indicative of all adopted children.
I wouldn't put my DOG on a transatlantic flight and then trust
a total stranger- someone I'd found over the internet -to pick her up
and transport her to a kennel or shelter hoping that she'd make it
and someone else would give her a home.
Torrey probably woudn 't either,
but Art is likely smarter and more articulate than your dog.





aidan wrote:
For Christ's sake...
No, it was for Torrey 's sake (and her unburned family).


aidan wrote:
I too question this mother's motives in adopting the child.
Yeah, I wonder also, but from the perspective of someone
who does not desire any children (beyond casual friendship).





aidan wrote:
Did she only want to provide a home for someone who would conform
to her wishes for who she wanted him to be?
I dunno.



aidan wrote:
Why would you change a seven year old child's name from Arteym to Justin?
I coud see calling him Art.
A lot of kids have that name.





aidan wrote:
Had she always wanted a little boy named Justin or something?
Anything is possible; maybe he chose from a list of options.





aidan wrote:
Just as the boy seemed unable to bond,
That was not the allegation.
Thay did not say that he coud not bond.
Thay said that he COUD ` burn (and did).




aidan wrote:
it seems this mother was unable to bond with the boy he was -
she seemed to be trying to turn him into something else.
Maybe he didn't want to be someone or something else. And
maybe that's why he protested in the only way he knew how.
Who knows ? Only thay do.






aidan wrote:
And David - a parent's job is to defend the life and health of their child
to the extent that they would sacrifice their own- if needed.
I remember that I felt the same way about my mom, tho this was never requested of me,
but that does not change the fact that anyone and everyone
has the natural right of self defense from anyone else.
I wish that Andrea Yates' children coud have grabbed a gun
when she was chasing them for drowning purposes in her bathtub.

Parents have the natural right of self defense from children.




aidan wrote:
There are many, many more instances of children being murdered
by parents than parents being murdered by children - especially
by children below the age of sixteen - or even twelve - much less seven.
I wonder what the statistics are.
Whatever thay may be, EVERYONE -- no exceptions -- has the
absolute right to defend his life from attack by any other person, no matter WHO;
i.e., parents have the natural right of self defense from their children.



aidan wrote:

This mother was defending her right to whatever daydream
of parenthood and family she'd concocted while looking at the
picture of this 'perfectly healthy little blonde haired blue eyed boy'
from across the world, whom she figured she could change into
a 'Justin' and bend to her will.
I think she actually went there; did not need a picture.






aidan wrote:
The only problem for her is that when she signed
the adoption papers - she made herself responsible for HIS rights
to health and happiness and due care by the adults around him -
for the rest of HIS life- and made herself the legal defender of those.
Those responsibilities are subordinated to her natural and legal right of self defense.
Woud u have said the same thing, if instead of attempted arson, he had chased her, swinging an ax at her ?

aidan wrote:
She fucked up all around.
There is no testimony of any of that going on.



aidan wrote:
In easiest terms - she didn't keep her word or do what she promised this boy
and children's services in two countries (Russia and the United States) to do.
If nothing else - she's in breech of contract.
By his threats and incendiary misconduct, he breeched first,
thereby making it impossible to perform on the other side and nullifying it (equitably).





David
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:36 am
@boomerang,
@firefly,
Quote:

boomerang, "our current understanding of psychoneurobiology" has nothing to do with whether anything this woman said about that child is actually true.


boomerang
Quote:

Cortisol levels are usually significantly higher in kids with RAD or PTSD.

RAD and PTSD are associated with certain types of right brain dysfunction that are associated with certain behaviors.


boomerang, you don't know that this child has either RAD or PTSD. PTSD is not caused by brain dysfunction--post traumatic stress disorder is a reaction to stress, it is caused by the stress of an external event. Stress can certainly have many different effects on bodily functions.
But, in terms of the present discussion, about this particular 7 year old, you are suggesting this child suffers from psychiatric conditions he may not have. You are trying to pin diagnostic labels on him without any knowledge of his actual behavior, other than a few brief descriptive comments the adoptive grandmother made to the media--and she said those things to defend her own outrageous behavior.

Because your friend has an adopted child, from a Russian orphanage, who may suffer from these conditions, does not mean that the same is true for all children adopted from Russian orphanages. And your friend has had her child appropriately diagnosed and treated. She has had her child actually observed by other people.

The same is not true of Torry Hansen. The grandmother said the child was never seen by a mental health professional. We don't even know if he saw a pediatrician. Neighbors did not interact with the child. He was not enrolled in school. Almost no one outside the family had any contact at all with the child during the time he was with Hansen. So, we have only the word of the adoptive mother and grandmother that this child displayed any atypical or abnormal behaviors. And they made these claims about the child to defend their own shocking behavior. They may be lying or grossly exaggerating about this child. And, if they just wanted to be rid of the child, they may have fabricated behaviors that would sound plausible, because some children adopted from Russian orphanages have displayed severe violent behaviors. But this child may have displayed no such behaviors. These women might be lying.

Don't be too ready and willing to believe things about this child which may be baseless and untrue. The only outsider who seems to have observed the child was the social worker from the adoption agency who made a home visit in January. That person reported that things were going well and Hansen had no complaints about the child. If this child had very serious, deep rooted psychiatric problems, they would have surfaced during those first four months.
I am very skeptical about the truthfulness of what the adoptive mother and grandmother later said regarding the child's allegedly abnormal behavior. They may have provoked, or actually caused, behaviors by mistreating or inappropriately treating this child. They may simply have wanted to be rid of him, and made things up about him to justify the rejection. Like aidan, I am not inclined to believe them right now.

I think it is very significant that the child was not enrolled in school. School provides structure and routine and group interactions, all of which would be helpful to a child who has just come from an orphanage, which is a group living situation with structure and routine. Home schooling, if that was even done, might actually be very stressful for this type of child, and it would not provide the same sort of structure or opportunity for socialization which would be found in school. Not enrolling him in school, might reveal an insensitivity to certain needs this particular child might have.

Perhaps even more significant is the fact that the Russian child was neither enrolled in school nor registered for home schooling. The 10 year old "cousin" who may have been in the home was neither enrolled in school nor registered for home schooling. The law requires that a child receive an education, that he either be sent to school or be registered for an appropriate home schooling program. So, why were the child and his cousin neither attending school nor registered for home schooling? Does the Hansen family think they can simply disregard the child welfare laws that pertain to education? Have they committed educational neglect? An investigation into that matter is going on.

But it seems that they might have ignored, or willfully violated, the legal obligation of a parent to ensure that their child receive an education. And, if you think your child has serious psychiatric problems, you are obligated, as a parent, to have a professional evaluation done, otherwise this is medical neglect. The adoptive grandmother admitted this was never done. These things are possible indications of irresponsible and neglectful parenting while the child was in his adoptive home.

So, Hanson may have committed medical neglect, and educational neglect, long before she even put that child on a plane to abandon him in the most callous manner possible. I'm not ready to believe anything this woman or her mother might say about this child. They called the child psychopathic. But psychopaths are people who defy laws, people who act without regard for prevailing law or moral standards, including those laws that apply to parental obligations. The description seems to fit them.

--------------------------------------------------------------

David, the child was only 7 when he flew to Moscow. He will turn 8 this week.


OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:39 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Sorry, typo.

And my name uses a small "b".
Then I wrote in error; my apologies.
What if it is at the beginning of a sentence ?





David
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:50 am
@firefly,
PTSD does indeed have a physical effect on the brain:

Quote:
Traumatic stress, such as that caused by childhood sexual abuse, can have far-reaching effects on the brain and its functions. Recent studies indicate that extreme stress can cause measurable physical changes in the hippocampus and medial prefrontal cortex, two areas of the brain involved in memory and emotional response. These changes can, in turn, lead not only to classic PTSD symptoms, such as loss and distortion of memory of events surrounding the abuse, but also to ongoing problems with learning and remembering new information. These findings may help explain the controversial phenomenon of "recovered" or delayed memories. They also suggest that how we educate, rehabilitate and treat PTSD sufferers may need to be reconsidered.


Hormone levels can be measured by blood or saliva tests. Brain function can be tested via MRI.

I absolutely did not say that this child has RAD or PTSD (only that it would be interesting to see the results of some testing). I said that I believe her because of what happened with my friend's family -- and the many other families that are stepping forward with their stories now.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:50 am
clearly Hansen's lawyer is expecting trouble
Quote:
Bedford County Sheriff Randall Boyce said at a news conference that an attorney representing Torry Hansen said the 33-year-old woman refuses to talk to authorities unless a charge is filed. An adoption agency assigned to check on the family said officials there haven’t been able to contact her since late March.
http://www.columbiadailyherald.com/articles/2010/04/14/top_stories/04russian.txt

and not only did Hansen not reach out for help, she refused those who were reaching out to her
Quote:
The Lexington Herald Leader reports the agency had follow up visits with the family as recent as January, but last month the family broke off contact, and couldn't be reached by emails or numerous phone calls
http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/90802569.html
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:52 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Still a small "b".
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:53 am
@boomerang,
Actually doctors and nurses frequently do just that. If you call, you provide symptoms, they ask questions and IF it is something that does not fit certain criteau (sp), they will give you advice and suggestions on how to handle it. Especially if it fits to a "T" a virus or similar going around and of course something that simply would require home remedies and does not have potential to be serious. Also with a recommendation that if xyz does not improve over so many days or 123 does not occur you bring yourself, child or whatever in.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:58 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Still a small "b".
I 'll remember.

As a point of curiosity,
if u don 't mind saying it,
will u reveal your reasoning about it ?





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:05 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
David, the child was only 7 when he flew to Moscow. He will turn 8 this week.
OK; thank u for that information.

I hope that thay 'll have a nice birthday party for him, with presents.


Permit me to suggest:
for those of u who have shown the greatest degree
of interest in his well being, Y not find out his address
and send him some presents in Russia, for his happiness ?






David
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:05 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
If someone feels disrespect by having their name misspelled they should offer the same respect to others. I've spelled my name here with a small b.

But really I just thought I'd join in the nit-picking fun.


I forgot my link from the previous post: http://gingerivers.com/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd-brain.html. Good article.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:13 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
PTSD does indeed have a physical effect on the brain


boomerang--PTSD is caused by traumatic stress. Any physical effects on the brain are the result of that continued stress, but it is not brain dysfunction which caused PTSD in the first place. Your original statement about PTSD seemed to reverse the chicken and the egg. Your current quote is more accurate.

If you want to believe Torry Hansen, simply because of your friend's experience, go right ahead. But if you often believe what people say, without any objective evidence from them to back up their remarks, you will often be misled. Torry Hansen's statements about her child aren't even fully consistent with her own behavior. If she believed he was seriously disturbed, she should have had him evaluated and treated. Your friend with the adopted Russian child did that, didn't she? Your friend didn't ignore her parental responsibilities. Hansen didn't notify the adoption agency about the problems either. She used no resources which were available to her if this child were seriously disturbed. Is that true of your friend too? I think not.

But, boomerang, if you want to believe the Hansens, go right ahead.
I, personally, am very skeptical about anything she or her mother have said.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:15 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
If someone feels disrespect by having their name misspelled they should offer the same respect to others.
I've spelled my name here with a small b.

But really I just thought I'd join in the nit-picking fun.


I forgot my link from the previous post: http://gingerivers.com/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd-brain.html. Good article.
O, so u meant it in humor. Its a joke ?
To avoid any breech of etiquette, I will still use a small b,
even at the beginning of a sentence, unless u say otherwise.





David
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:18 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

But, in terms of the present discussion, about this particular 7 year old, you are suggesting this child suffers from psychiatric conditions he may not have. You are trying to pin diagnostic labels on him without any knowledge of his actual behavior, other than a few brief descriptive comments the adoptive grandmother made to the media--and she said those things to defend her own outrageous behavior.


I've read boomerang's contributions as saying more that it's distinctly possible that the boy has RAD or some other condition that could cause him to both seem normal before Torry Hansen adopted him and since he arrived back in Russia, but still cause some really severe acting-out when he was under her care. I don't think boomer's trying to pin a label on anything, and is in fact protesting the pinning that she's seeing.

There is a lot we don't know. I could see all of this going several different directions from what we do know. I think we all agree that pretty much no matter what was going on, though (a genuinely disturbed kid who was way too much for her, a pretty much normal kid that she just didn't know how to parent, or some other sceanrio entirely), she handled this badly.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:37 pm
@sozobe,
Thank you, soz.

What this woman did was abhorent but to lable her a sub-human moster incapable of love who rejected her kid because he failed to live up to her expectation to be "perfect" is absurd.

David, I really don't care how you spell my moniker. It makes no difference to me how anyone spells it.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:55 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
firefly wrote:
But, in terms of the present discussion, about this particular 7 year old, you are suggesting this child suffers from psychiatric conditions he may not have. You are trying to pin diagnostic labels on him without any knowledge of his actual behavior, other than a few brief descriptive comments the adoptive grandmother made to the media--and she said those things to defend her own outrageous behavior.


I've read boomerang's contributions as saying more that it's distinctly possible that the boy has RAD or some other condition that could cause him to both seem normal before Torry Hansen adopted him and since he arrived back in Russia, but still cause some really severe acting-out when he was under her care. I don't think boomer's trying to pin a label on anything, and is in fact protesting the pinning that she's seeing.

There is a lot we don't know. I could see all of this going several different directions from what we do know. I think we all agree that pretty much no matter what was going on, though (a genuinely disturbed kid who was way too much for her, a pretty much normal kid that she just didn't know how to parent, or some other sceanrio entirely), she handled this badly.
Personally, I can relate to this to the following extent:
some years ago, I belonged to what amounted to a social club
of alumni, one of whose members appeared very sad and demoralized for a few weeks.
I thought that maybe if I showed some friendly interest in her, it might raise her morale somewhat.
I invited her to dinner in a Manhattan restaurant: she declined. Again a week later: she accepted.

During conversation at dinner, I found that she had mental problems that were very far beyond my ability to help.
She was calm & pleasant, no hostility, but I was extremely out of my depth in terms of being able to assist with that.
I 'm pretty sure that none of us at the social club had any idea that she had any mental illness.

(A few years later, I saw her in the NYC Subway at 34th St. She had become a bag lady.)


The moral of the story is:
people can have profound mental disturbances that don 't show
unless u really get to know them better. Probably a lot of them
don 't just show up during dinner.





David

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:30 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:

I've read boomerang's contributions as saying more that it's distinctly possible that the boy has RAD or some other condition that could cause him to both seem normal before Torry Hansen adopted him and since he arrived back in Russia, but still cause some really severe acting-out when he was under her care.


RAD would not really result in a child acting normally at the orphanage before adoption, and acting normally when returned to the orphanage, but who only displayed severe acting-out when living with Hansen. If the child displayed severe problems only in the adoptive home, but not before or after he was in that home, it would indicate an adjustment reaction, or something like that, to something about the adoptive home or the people in it.

The adoptive mother is claiming the child did have serious problems at the orphanage which had not been disclosed to her before the adoption. I believe that boomerang is agreeing that might have been the case, based on her friend's experience with an adopted Russian child.

boomerang is willing to take the adoptive mother's word for how this child acted in her home. I am very skeptical about believing what she has said about the child. Everyone can have their own opinion about whether to believe the adoptive mother.

We do know the adoption didn't work out. We can't be too sure whose fault that was without more info. We do know the adoptive mother handled the situation very badly.

We
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:33 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
this woman did was abhorent but to lable her a sub-human moster incapable of love


Given what she and her mother did to a defenseless child under her care and protection such a judgment seem to fit
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:39 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quick legal question, David: if one of the parties to an agreement (viewing adoption as a contract) can be shown to have grossly misrepresented relevant facts, or at the very least lied by omission, isn't the contract in question ipso facto rendered null and void?

It's certainly hard to believe that all the several witnesses to that boy's behavior are suddenly in cahoots to lie about iy. I read a statement by the US ambassador to Moscow, btw, which mentions his embassy is indirectly involved as legal adoption in the US automatically grants US citizenship to the adoptee - would that be reversible as well if outright fraud on the Russian part can be proven? Thanks.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:41 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Thank you, soz.

What this woman did was abhorent but to lable her a sub-human moster incapable of love
who rejected her kid because he failed to live up to her expectation to be "perfect" is absurd.

David, I really don't care how you spell my moniker. It makes no difference to me how anyone spells it.
Understood.
Over the years n decades of my life,
I have learned that one must be punctilious qua matters of etiquette,
disregarding them at his peril of oral reprimand.
Not everyone is as mentally stable as u are, boomer.

For instance,
some years ago, on the job I encountered someone in passing in a hall.
He said hi and asked me how I was. I answered "OK, how are u?"
As he disappeared in the distance behind me, I heard him complain to himself, loudly,
that I had not thanked him for asking me how I was.

Several months later:
the same scenario. He said hi and asked me how I was.
I knew that I 'd been down this road b4.
I said: "Hi. Fine, thank u. How are u?"
He answered: "OK" and walked away without uttering
the "thank u" that had been so important to him in the past.

The moral of the story is:
a lot of people are nuts and if u don 't fastidiously
observe designated etiquette that can cause an uproar.

If u think that 's worth passing along, u might mention it to Mo.





David
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 01:42 pm
@firefly,
Is it easier to side with the mother because she adopted the child and the child is from Russia?
What if it had been a biological mother - say of Swedish decedent - who sent her difficult child to Sweden, got a for her unknown person to pick him up at the airport and bring him to Barnavårdsnämnden.
Would people than have sided just as much with her? Isn´t it easier to side with her because the child is from Russia and she tells us that he is dangerous?
"Everybody" knows somebody who knows someone who has a difficult Russian adopted child.
I am sure "everybody" knows somebody who knows someone of Swedish decendent who has a difficult biological child too if it had been the case, which I described above.
0 Replies
 
 

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