ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

@hawkeye10,

They probably didn't guess at what was wrong with the kid. Reputable professionals really don't do that, you can get into malpractice problems diagnosing things over the phone. They might have given her general advice about adjustment problems or behavior management, and likely told her to have the child seen by someone if anything serious was going on.

1 Reply

@firefly,

They do say that the symptoms described are consistent with xyz, correct?

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

The business of fire was mentioned only after the fury erupted,
by the grandmother, in her statement to the media--when she
was trying to defend her own outrageous behavior. At that point,
she had to make the child sound like some kind of extreme menace,
otherwise she and her daughter would look even worse.

If we grant that u are right about those things, that does not foreclose
the possibility that, as alleged, he repeatedly threatened them with arson,
that he drew one or more pictures of the results of said arson,
and that he started fires. Notice that the allegations of threats
and of fires remain undisputed by the alleged perpetrator,
who was very willing to accuse Torrey of pulling his hair,
but not to deny the aforesaid allegations. Presumably, the Russians
asked him about them. The Russians do not allege a denial.

firefly wrote:

If the Hansens did, indeed, feel threatened by this child,
they should have placed him in a psychiatric hospital, or some
other facility which would assure that everyone was safe--
including the child--and where he could receive evaluation and treatment.
Hansen is the legal parent of the boy, and that makes her options
no different than those of a biological parent--you can't just discard
your child and send him out of the country.

Torrey and Nancy allege that Torrey was defrauded.
It is uncertain whether an American court
woud enforce and uphold the validity of the adoption,
if the court found that Torrey was a victim of fraud.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

I think it's unlikely Hansen called someone to get a diagnosis. No professional really makes a diagnosis on the phone, and it's more likely she called someone for advice on what to do about some specific behavior. And, if she got advice, it would likely be very general.

We don't know who she called or why. She is a nurse who works at a V.A. Hospital, so she may have spoken to a shrink she knows there for advice. They probably told her to have the child seen by someone. If she called a pediatrician and said the child had an earache and a temperature of 102, they'd probably tell her to have the child seen too.

Sure, if I call my doctor and say I have extreme tightness in my chest, pain in my left arm, and difficulty breathing, I'm sure he'd say, "That might be a heart attack--call 911". If I tell him I have a rash that won't go away, he'd probably suggest I come into the office so he could look at it. But he wouldn't be diagnosing either my chest tightness, or my rash, without seeing me.

If she was really concerned about the child's behavior, Hansen should have had him evaluated by someone.

3 Replies

@firefly,

Firefly,
do u have an opinion
of whether he 'd be happier in America or in Russia ?

David

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Firefly,
do u have an opinion
of whether he 'd be happier in America or in Russia ?

David it may very well be a reasonable question dave but it doesn't really matter what the answer is. children are, by law, property and their happiness or well-being are really of no interest to legislators who enact law pertaining to children.

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Torrey and Nancy allege that thay were defrauded.
It is uncertain whether an American court
would enforce and uphold the validity of the adoption,
if the court found that Torrey was a victim of fraud.

What a court might decide in the future, about whether Hansen was defrauded during the adoption, doesn't change the fact that she was the child's legal parent at the time she put the child on a plane. She bought her a 7 year old son a one way ticket to Moscow and send him out of the country to get rid of him. That's child abandonment. No parent, adoptive or biological, can get rid of their child that way. She is still the boy's legal parent.

She has no proof she was was defrauded because she has no proof the child is violent, or psychopathic, or mentally unstable. She has no evidence that would hold up in a court. The Russians don't have to prove anything--she's the one claiming fraud, so the burden of proof rests with her.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Firefly,
do u have an opinion
of whether he 'd be happier in America or in Russia ?

I said this in a previous post.

Quote:

I'm not sure where the child would be better off. I'd like to think that a life in the United States, in a more appropriate and understanding home, would be better for him than living in Russia. But it would only add to the disruption and confusion to return him here now.

I have no idea where he'd be happier--at the moment I'm sure he's rather confused by all that's happened. We don't know if he was happy or not happy with Hansen, or if he preferred being with her to being in the orphanage. We don't know the child.

0 Replies

@firefly,

David wrote:

Torrey and Nancy allege that thay were defrauded.
It is uncertain whether an American court
would enforce and uphold the validity of the adoption,
if the court found that Torrey was a victim of fraud.

firefly wrote:

What a court might decide in the future, about whether Hansen
was defrauded during the adoption, doesn't change the fact that
she was the child's legal parent at the time she put the child on a plane.
She bought her a 7 year old son a one way ticket to Moscow
and send him out of the country to get rid of him.

That's child abandonment.

There 's no denying THAT, so far as I can see.

firefly wrote:

No parent, adoptive or biological, can get rid of their child that way.
She is still the boy's legal parent.

She has no proof she was was defrauded because she has no proof
the child is violent, or psychopathic, or mentally unstable.
She has no evidence that would hold up in a court. The Russians
don't have to prove anything--she's the one claiming fraud, so the
burden of proof rests with her.

It remains to be seen what evidence is developed and forthcoming.

David

1 Reply

Quote:

No parent, adoptive or biological, can get rid of their child that way. She is still the boy's legal parent.

You're kidding, right?

In parts of the world people can drop their kids in drop boxes, no questions asked.

In America we call it "safe haven". Leave a kid at a designated site and walk away, no questions asked. They don't even ask if the person leaving the child is the actual parent of the child. In some cases it isn't.

2 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

No professional really makes a diagnosis on the phone,

But you're making a diagnosis over the internet, without every having spoken to a soul involved in this case, and with no discernable credentials.

Hmmmm.

3 Replies

@firefly,

Quote:

Based on what?

Based on our current understanding of psychoneurobiology.

1 Reply

for what it's worth boom, I agree with you completely.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

Quote:

happiness or well-being are really of no interest to legislators who enact law pertaining to children.

So, dys, what do you think they mean when they say "in the child's best intrests"?

I've scratched my head over that a few times in the past.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

It remains to be seen what evidence is developed and forthcoming.

Well, she doesn't have access to the child now, so there is no way she can have a professional evaluation done. Unless she manages to produce a psychiatric/psychological report, based on an evaluation she had done while the child was here, that describes a seriously disturbed child, with impulse control so poor that he constitutes a danger to others, how can she provide new evidence to support a fraud case, or to justify her actions?

Because the child draws a burning house, and says he wants to burn the house with everyone in it, does not mean that he was seriously disturbed when he left Russia. The child went through a disruptive experience with the adoption, a reaction to a difficult readjustment is not necessarily indicative of mental instability, or of deep rooted problems. If the child was mistreated or abused by Hansen, he might have been simply very angry at her, and was just verbalizing that anger through fantasy of what he'd like to do. Fantasy is not the same as reality. The fact is, he did not set the house on fire. He did not actually injure anyone in the home. Grandma would have told us if that had happened.

But, we certainly do need to have more info about the case to really make sense of what happened. It will be interesting to see what else emerges.

0 Replies

@chai2,

Thanks, chai. It means a lot, actually.

I've spent years of my life researching and learning about adoption issues so that I can advocate for Mo.

When stuff like this comes up and suddenly it's all about "big meany adopters" it makes me nuts.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

boomerang, "our current understanding of psychoneurobiology" has nothing to do with whether anything this woman said about that child is actually true.

She can't prove that the Russians defrauded her unless she can present concrete evidence that the child actually displayed seriously disturbed behavior. The home visit in January by the social worker from the adoption agency noted no problems. Hansen was so enthused about the way things were going, she made moves to adopt a second child. Surely, a very disturbed 7 year old would have shown some indication of it during his first four months in that home. Four months is a long time. And we really don't know what happened after that first post adoption home visit because Hansen made herself unavailable for the next visit in March.

We don't know that this child ever displayed abnormal behavior at all.

We do know that Hansen displayed abnormal behavior by putting him on that plane all alone, and sending him to Russia to get the adoption disannulled.

Why are you so willing to believe that the child does have very serious psychiatric problems? Because two women bought him a plane ticket and sent him back to Russia? Maybe they just didn't like him. Not all children coming out of Russian orphanages are seriously disturbed.

I'm not denying that the child might have serious problems, which were not revealed to Hansen prior to the adoption. I'm saying we don't know that is the case because Hansen didn't report any serious behavioral or emotional problems to anyone in the U.S., she didn't seek help, she didn't have the child evaluated, she didn't do anything to support her contention that the child is allegedly very seriously disturbed. We have only her statement to that effect in the letter she sent with the boy. Her statements, without supporting concrete evidence to back them up, does not give her much of a leg to stand on in terms of trying to prove fraud--and the burden of proof would be on her. And, if she believed the child was seriously disturbed, why did she fail to get him any treatment, or even a professional evaluation? If the Russians defrauded her, then she is also guilty of medical neglect of this child. She can't have it both ways.

Sometimes you have to advocate for the adopted child. We do know that this one didn't receive very compassionate treatment from his adopted mother. I'm not so willing to believe that the child was the problem in this case.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

firefly
Quote:
No professional really makes a diagnosis on the phone,

boomerang
Quote
But you're making a diagnosis over the internet, without every having spoken to a soul involved in this case, and with no discernable credentials.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
boomerang, I'm not aware that I've made a formal psychiatric diagnosis of anyone. What DSM IV diagnosis have I made?
In fact, I've been defending the child from being slapped with a diagnostic label, just because he comes from a Russian orphanage. He may not have very serious psychiatric problems. Not all children from Russian orphanages do have serious deep rooted problems. Just because his adoptive mother calls him psychopathic does not make it true.

And Hansen's behavior was abnormal, in the truest sense of the word--a marked departure from a statistical norm. How many other adoptive mothers have put their child on a plane alone and sent them back to their country of origin with a letter requesting the adoption be voided? Not too many. Her behavior was quite abnormal.

I've simply been speculating and hypothesizing about what might have occurred with this adoption and offering my opinions. That's what people do on the internet. And the whole world is talking about this case.

Do I need credentials to voice my opinions in this thread?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

boomerang--what does your statement about me have to do with whether reputable professionals diagnose people they have never seen over the telephone?

Reputable doctors don't diagnose unfamiliar patients on the phone--for many reasons. They prefer to be paid for such things, and they worry about malpractice, just to name two.

0 Replies

@boomerang,

firefly
Quote:
No parent, adoptive or biological, can get rid of their child that way. She is still the boy's legal parent.

boomerang

Quote:

You're kidding, right?

In parts of the world people can drop their kids in drop boxes, no questions asked.

In America we call it "safe haven". Leave a kid at a designated site and walk away, no questions asked. They don't even ask if the person leaving the child is the actual parent of the child. In some cases it isn't.

Safe haven laws in the U.S. apply only to newborns and infants. They were established to try to prevent the killing of infants, and the discarding of them while alive.

I was talking about a 7 year old. There are no "safe haven" drop off sites for 7 year olds in the U.S.. You cannot just abandon a child that age to get rid of them. Buying your 7 year old child a one way ticket to Moscow is abandonment.

0 Replies

@boomerang,

There are desperae young mothers who give birth to a child secretly and then kill them or throw them into a garbage can.
That is why this idea with boxes in hospitals has become a help for the child to have a chance to live and be taken care of.
I don´t know in how many European countries they exists, but I know they are in Germany.
These boxes are to save lifes.

1 Reply

ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

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