17
   

ADOPTED RUSSIAN BOY REJECTED, IN SELF DEFENSE

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:11 pm
@firefly,
the guide said
Quote:
Artem understands, but does not speak Russian. The boy was handed over to police and a local hospital. His condition is described as "satisfactory."


this makes some sense though
Quote:
The online website Gazeta.ru said the child had almost completely forgotten how to speak Russian during his time in the United States, and answered questions posed to him in his native language in English. He said his adoptive grandparents were “good” but his mother was “very bad”, claimed the website. During his time in the US, he had been given a new name " Justin Hansen
http://www.babylovechild.org/2010/04/10/russia-suspends-american-adoptions-the-adoption-industry-tries-to-pretend-the-artems-case-is-not-part-of-a-broader-pattern/
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:23 pm
@firefly,

Firefly,
Y do u think that Torrey wanted him in the first place ?

Meaning no disrespect, but u have attributed many, numerous circumstances and decisions
to Torrey and Nancy as to which there is no evidence. Its not as if the kid complained of these things.





David











0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:34 pm

I 'm glad that I started this thread; it has become very lively & the subject of much interest. 2,372 views


Its also fun to post about something other than the topic upon which I have obsessively focused so much attention.





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 02:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
Torry Hansen was in the process of trying to adopt a second child

Quote:
The Tennessee mother who horrified the adoption community when she put her 7-year-old son on a plane back to Russia was in the process of trying to adopt a second child.

Torry Hansen had turned to a second adoption agency to bring home a child from the Soviet Republic of Georgia, a source with the sheriff's department told ABC News.

She switched adoption agencies after the agency that arranged the adoption of her first child, World Association for Children and Parents, urged her to wait before adopting again, the source said. The association advised Hansen it would be best to settle in with the boy before adding to her family, the source said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Tennessee sheriff investigating the case said both Torry and Nancy Hansen have notified him through their lawyer that they refuse to be interviewed unless they are charged with a crime. He said he is looking into possible charges against the women.

"Abuse has been mentioned," Sheriff Randall Boyce said.

Investigators are expected to meet with the district attorney today. Charges being considered for both Torry and Nancy Hansen include child abuse, endangering the welfare of a child and educational neglect.

The educational neglect charge stems from the fact that neither Artyem or his cousin Logan were registered for public school or home school. Torry Hansen's sister, Logan's mother, could also face charges for educational neglect, a misdemeanor.
Any charges against the women, however, may be difficult to prove since Artyem is now in Russia and Russian officials have told ABC News that it is unlikely that the boy will ever set foot on U.S. soil again. Because the boy is in Russia, U.S. investigators are unable to question him about any allegations. Perhaps more importantly, if the boy is not present in a Tennessee courtroom, any case against the women could be dismissed.

"This is an extremely complicated deal," Boyce said. "There's nothing simple about this."

Boyce said there haven't been any reports of trouble in the Hansen home from the police or the adoption agency Torry Hansen used. Hansen, Boyce said, was contacted by the agency in January and March, but didn't report problems at that point. In December Hansen was so thrilled with Artyem she began asking about a second child.

The status of the second adoption inquiry was unclear today.
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10358887
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If she wanted a second child, the first one couldn't have been such a violent, dangerous psychopath.Smile But, again, trying to adopt a second child so soon after the first, shows poor judgment. Something crazy was going on in with this woman. I'm even less inclined now to believe the 7 year old was at all dangerous. Either this is fabricated, or these women did something to the child to provoke a hostile or angry reaction from him.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:00 pm
@firefly,

Quote:
Either this is fabricated, or these women did something to the child to provoke a hostile or angry reaction from him.


http://www.astrochicks.com/2010/04/torry-hansen-sheriff-to-file-charges-was-artem-saveliev-abused-by-adoptive-family/comment-page-1/

Authorities in Russia say Artem Saveliev, the abandoned Russian boy, has shown no violent tendencies since his arrival. Artem, has been placed in protective care and has been examined by local doctors. What’s most disturbing, is Russian doctors have found “some scars and some bodily injuries,” including marks on his leg and hands. The marks are believed to be two to three months old. Was Artem physically abused by Torry and Nancy Hansen?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:03 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Torry Hansen was in the process of trying to adopt a second child

Quote:
The Tennessee mother who horrified the adoption community when she put her 7-year-old son on a plane back to Russia was in the process of trying to adopt a second child.

Torry Hansen had turned to a second adoption agency to bring home a child from the Soviet Republic of Georgia, a source with the sheriff's department told ABC News.

She switched adoption agencies after the agency that arranged the adoption of her first child, World Association for Children and Parents, urged her to wait before adopting again, the source said. The association advised Hansen it would be best to settle in with the boy before adding to her family, the source said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Tennessee sheriff investigating the case said both Torry and Nancy Hansen have notified him through their lawyer that they refuse to be interviewed unless they are charged with a crime. He said he is looking into possible charges against the women.

"Abuse has been mentioned," Sheriff Randall Boyce said.

Investigators are expected to meet with the district attorney today. Charges being considered for both Torry and Nancy Hansen include child abuse, endangering the welfare of a child and educational neglect.

The educational neglect charge stems from the fact that neither Artyem or his cousin Logan were registered for public school or home school. Torry Hansen's sister, Logan's mother, could also face charges for educational neglect, a misdemeanor.
Any charges against the women, however, may be difficult to prove since Artyem is now in Russia and Russian officials have told ABC News that it is unlikely that the boy will ever set foot on U.S. soil again. Because the boy is in Russia, U.S. investigators are unable to question him about any allegations. Perhaps more importantly, if the boy is not present in a Tennessee courtroom, any case against the women could be dismissed.

"This is an extremely complicated deal," Boyce said. "There's nothing simple about this."

Boyce said there haven't been any reports of trouble in the Hansen home from the police or the adoption agency Torry Hansen used. Hansen, Boyce said, was contacted by the agency in January and March, but didn't report problems at that point. In December Hansen was so thrilled with Artyem she began asking about a second child.

The status of the second adoption inquiry was unclear today.
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=10358887
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If she wanted a second child, the first one couldn't have been such a violent, dangerous psychopath.Smile
He coud if his psychopathy began to manifest AFTER she expressed desires of a second child.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:20 pm
@BillRM,
He said they didn't hit him, but that Torry Hanson was mean to him and pulled his hair.

They might have been verbally abusive to him. They seem to have been insensitive to his needs and feelings (just look at the way they sent him back), and they might have been emotionally abusive.

Something did happen in that house after January to cause them to want to get rid of the child. This coincided with Hansen's trying to adopt a second child. Perhaps the 7 year old was afraid they wanted to replace him with another child, and he began acting out or became more difficult. I just doubt he was ever violent or dangerous. Either they misinterpreted or exaggerated his behavior, or simply lied in the letter they sent to the Russians. That letter contained no examples of his allegedly violent behavior--none. The business about the fires was what the grandmother told the media after the world was furious at them. I wouldn't trust anything they might say to try to make themselves look like the helpless victims of a dangerous child. Why Hansen was in such a rush for a second adoption is puzzling. But it certainly suggests that the 7 year old really wasn't such a holy terror if she wanted another child.

David, the child couldn't become a psychopath over night. But he might have been reacting negatively to the idea of another child, because it might have threatened him. Or something else could have happened in the home that affected him.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:20 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
He coud if his psychopathy began to manifest AFTER she expressed desires of a second child.


Anything is possible but highly unlikely to say the least however.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:46 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
He said they didn't hit him, but that Torry Hanson was mean to him and pulled his hair.

They might have been verbally abusive to him. They seem to have been insensitive to his needs and feelings
(just look at the way they sent him back),
Did he CARE about that??
Has he objected to that?

When he wanted to complain about having his hair pulled,
there was nothing reticent about him.



firefly wrote:
and they might have been emotionally abusive.

Something did happen in that house after January to cause them
to want to get rid of the child.
YES.


firefly wrote:
This coincided with Hansen's trying to adopt a second child.
Perhaps the 7 year old was afraid they wanted to replace him
with another child, and he began acting out or became more difficult.

I just doubt he was ever violent or dangerous.
Is there a factual basis for your skepticism ?


firefly wrote:
Either they misinterpreted or exaggerated his behavior, or simply lied in the letter they sent to the Russians.
U KNOW this ?


firefly wrote:
That letter contained no examples of his allegedly violent behavior--none.
Its not as if she wanted him to be criminally prosecuted.





firefly wrote:
The business about the fires was what the grandmother told the media after the world was furious at them.
I wouldn't trust anything they might say to try to make themselves look like the helpless victims of a dangerous child.
It is always wise not to trust anyone.




firefly wrote:
Why Hansen was in such a rush for a second adoption is puzzling.
But it certainly suggests that the 7 year old really wasn't such a
holy terror if she wanted another child.
That depends on the chronological sequence of events.



firefly wrote:
David, the child couldn't become a psychopath over night.
Agreed; I don 't believe that he coud,
but dormant psychopathy might have later been manifested, after a delay.




firefly wrote:
But he might have been reacting negatively to the idea of another child,
because it might have threatened him. Or something else could
have happened in the home that affected him.
Agreed; that 's very possible.

The Big Question is whether or not
the Hansens' defense from impending arson was necessary.





David
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:49 pm
@BillRM,
If you send the child all the way back to Russia, with a letter requesting that the adoption be disannulled because the child has violent and psychopathic tendencies, don't you think it would be appropriate to describe and include some examples of specific violent, dangerous behaviors? Or photos of damage he has done. Or videos of him threatening to set fires. If you are trying to have an adoption disannulled it helps if you are specific in your complaints.
That Hansen didn't do any of this is rather revealing.

And, when the adoption agency told Hansen to wait before trying to adopt a second child, she didn't listen, she contacted a different agency and tried to avoid contact with the first one. She doesn't take advice and she shows poor judgment. Her mothering skills are probably on that same level. I can believe that the 7 year old might have been anxious about the talk of another adoption, and that might have made him more irritable or impulsive, or hyperactive and Hansen just didn't know how to handle him or respond to him. She might have gotten quite nasty toward him, which would have made his behavior even worse, and then she simply became fed up with him. That's very possible.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 04:15 pm

Admittedly, I did not travel alone between cities at age 7,
but I took buses between Los Angeles and Phoenix, Arizona and back, when I was 11.
I did not think much of it; no big deal, a trip of several hours, somewhat enjoyable by day or by night.

I remember arriving at the bus depo in Phoenix.
I found a fone and called my father to get a lift home.
He told me to take a cab or a local bus.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 04:33 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
If you send the child all the way back to Russia, with a letter requesting that the adoption be disannulled because the child has violent and psychopathic tendencies, don't you think it would be appropriate to describe and include some examples of specific violent, dangerous behaviors? Or photos of damage he has done. Or videos of him threatening to set fires. If you are trying to have an adoption disannulled it helps if you are specific in your complaints.
That Hansen didn't do any of this is rather revealing.

And, when the adoption agency told Hansen to wait before trying to adopt a second child, she didn't listen, she contacted a different agency and tried to avoid contact with the first one. She doesn't take advice and she shows poor judgment. Her mothering skills are probably on that same level. I can believe that the 7 year old might have been anxious about the talk of another adoption, and that might have made him more irritable or impulsive, or hyperactive
If I may be permitted a brief aside:
about 50 years ago, I adopted a young pussy cat; his name was Pussy Cat.
We kept him for many years. He had a cat box and he was an indoor cat.
He was satisfied with that; content with the status quo.

Maybe 12 years later, my mom rescued a kitten and brought her home.
When Pussy Cat saw her, he was outraged!
He did not say anything, but the look on his face,
and his body language were of gross shock and indignation.

Within one day,
he got out, left home and was never seen again.





David
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:10 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
The Big Question is whether or not
the Hansens' defense from impending arson was necessary.


David, the problem with your question is that you assume there was a threat of "impending arson" and we really don't know that is the case. Hansen did not mention any specific behaviors or examples of what she meant by violent psychopathic tendencies in that letter she wrote to the Russians. And that letter was an important statement about the boy--she wanted the Russians to void the entire adoption based on that letter. And it doesn't mention fire, or knives, or putting foreign substances in food, or trying to torture animals, in fact, it doesn't mention any conceivable violent action, or anything the child actually did. I find that very strange.

The business of fire was mentioned only after the fury erupted, by the grandmother, in her statement to the media--when she was trying to defend her own outrageous behavior. At that point, she had to make the child sound like some kind of extreme menace, otherwise she and her daughter would look even worse.

If the Hansens did, indeed, feel threatened by this child, they should have placed him in a psychiatric hospital, or some other facility which would assure that everyone was safe--including the child--and where he could receive evaluation and treatment. Hansen is the legal parent of the boy, and that makes her options no different than those of a biological parent--you can't just discard your child and send him out of the country. He was no longer the responsibility of the Russian government, he was her child. If she wanted to surrender her parental rights, she should have instituted legal proceedings in the U.S. to do that. You can't say that her perception of a possible threat justifies what she did by sending the child back to Russia. It might justify removing the child from her home, and having him put in a hospital, or foster care, or simply an appropriate placement elsewhere, but it does not justify what she did.

This woman has extremely questionable judgment, and that's evident in her desire to adopt a second child, against the advice of the adoption agency, as well as the manner in which she disposed of her son. No doubt her poor judgment affected her parenting skills as well. So it's impossible to tell what problems the child might have had to begin with, and what problems she might have provoked. She did not seek help in managing the child, and she didn't even enroll him in school. No one, outside the family, seems to have observed the child, other than the adoption agency social worker who made a home visit in January, and noted that things were going well. Hansen made herself unavailable for the next home visit which was supposed to take place in March.
And then, out of the blue, she ships the child to Russia with a letter that says he's a violent psychopath. This story really makes no sense. These aren't the actions you expect from a mother who feels threatened by a child, something else is going on with this woman. If she ever comes out of hiding, we might get some answers, but I'm not sure we can believe her or that we'll ever find out what really went on in the house when the child was there.

One thing does seem clear, she had no feelings of love for this child. One can only wonder why she was planning a second adoption.

It is amazing that they haven't dug up a single person who knows this woman well. No neighbors, no people from her place of employment (if in fact she was really working), no people from her past. Both law enforcement and the media are trying to dig up info on this woman, and so far they have come up with nothing, except for reports that she and her mother regularly held yard sales. They haven't had a single interview with anyone who could comment on what kind of person she is. That's very strange. It does make one wonder how much they really knew about her before they let her adopt this child.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:11 pm
Because I'm interested in adoption issues I was reading around about this stuff today and came across some law that I'd never encountered before: wrongful adoption.

Pretty interesting stuff:

http://www.kongreen.com/downloads/tort_wrongful_adoption.pdf

http://encyclopedia.adoption.com/entry/wrongful-adoption/375/1.html

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/23182509/Wrongful-adoption--a-legal-remedy-for-adoptive-parents-(by-Madelyn/

I hope for the kid's sake that they keep him in Russia, he's been dealt a crappy hand long enough, but from a curiosity standpoint it would be interesting to see him returned to the American family and see what happens after proper evaluations instead of armchair psychoanalysts evaluations that are everywhere on the internet.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:38 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang--You would want to see him returned to that woman's care?

I doubt that Child Protective Services, or anyone else, would go along with that. They are looking to possibly prosecute Hansen on child abuse and abandonment.

If they do send him back to the U.S., he would not be returned to her. I would imagine he would be in foster care until things were sorted out and he was free to be adopted again.

I'd like to see a psychological evaluation done on Torry and Nancy Hansen.

I'm not sure where the child would be better off. I'd like to think that a life in the United States, in a more appropriate and understanding home, would be better for him than living in Russia. But it would only add to the disruption and confusion to return him here now.

The legal cases are interesting, but Hansen doesn't have a case. She never had the child evaluated, or even observed, and she's not qualified to make a diagnosis on her own. So she has no evidence to prove she was defrauded in any way. For all we know, the Russian child might have no serious problems.

They may unseal his adoption records, and that might contain medical reports or psychiatric reports, but those would probably not be made public because of confidentiality.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:42 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The legal cases are interesting, but Hansen doesn't have a case. She never had the child evaluated, or even observed, and she's not qualified to make a diagnosis on her own. So she has no evidence to prove she was defrauded in any way. For all we know, the Russian child might have no serious problems.
According to Grandma (I think) the defense is that mom talked to a shrink on the phone. So far that is the only contact with a professional that has come out.
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Believe me, the shrink will quickly say they never saw the child, and therefore he/she could not attest to anything other than what the mother described. That would not back Hansen up at all. She could have fabricated what she said to the shrink.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:48 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
boomerang--You would want to see him returned to that woman's care?


Did you bother to read my response?

I said no, I meant no.

I think she does have a case.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:52 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
I think she does have a case.


Based on what? Her word alone, with no observation, or evaluation, of the child by a qualified professional? And the social worker from the adoption agency noted no problems when a home visit was made in January. Hansen didn't complain about the child at that time. She was so enthused, she wanted to adopt another child.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:57 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Believe me, the shrink will quickly say they never saw the child, and therefore he/she could not attest to anything other than what the mother described. That would not back Hansen up at all. She could have fabricated what she said to the shrink
Certainly, and they almost certainly said exactly that to the mother before they started to guess what was wrong with the kid.
 

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