Barrier Reef oil spill April 4, 2010

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

I'm for the use of any and all possible safety measures taken.

Rubbish!!! The joint would grind to a halt you silly moo. You're for the use of any and all possible opportunities to spout grandiose worthless foam from the mouth.

I assume we can ignore the "taken" because otherwise you are in favour of the ones in use when this, and all other accidents, happened.

1 Reply

@Diest TKO,

Quote:

These measures would certainly also improve efficiency in the long run as well.

Efficiency of what? You would be in favour then of applying your own standards to those who produce imports into the US.

1 Reply

@spendius,

...says the rubbish spouting, foaming moo.

T
K
Rolling Eyes

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
These measures would certainly also improve efficiency in the long run as well.

Efficiency of what? You would be in favour then of applying your own standards to those who produce imports into the US.

Because you need reminders about what the topic is so often, we're discussing an accident that happened when a ship was off course.

I'd be in favor of applying these standards to the USA, yes. I want the USA to lead in safety and efficiency (for that matter a lot of other things too). The fact that we don't in so many areas is an embarrassment. This however is NOT about the USA, and as I recall, many of our fine Australian posters have raised issue in the past with American A2kers co-opting international topics and making them about the USA.

So thanks, but no thanks to the offer to make this about me and my country.

T
K
O

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@msolga,

msolga wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
It appears to me that the competing economic interests in this case are all Australian: the desire to export coal and other commodities and import goods to the cities along the eastern coast. These are issues you will have to resolve for yourselves.

You don't believe there might be mutual interests here, George? Between the sellers & buyers/transporters of Australian coal & gas? (Personally I'd prefer that Australia did not export so much coal, because of environment concerns. But that's another issue ..) You cannot conceive of possible resolution that might work for both sides? I would seriously hope that there could be, especially since there's going to be a huge increase in the number of cargo ships passing through the Great Barrier Reef in the very near future.

I do believe there are mutual interests involved, as you noted. However the attractiveness of Australian coal to China is a function of its price and they have shown themselves to be fairly aggressive negotiators in the cases of needed raw materials. There is generally a surplus of coal in the world, but its price is largely dependent on transport costs. Australia, both east and west, is a major exporter of fuel and minerals to other Asian nations. I have the impression that, perhaps as a result, a fairly rapid development of the eastern coast of Australia is expected and that is the ultimate driver of the forecast increase in shipping in the articles you posted.

All this leads to a complex of issues and questions - mostly for Australia. Which ports should be developed and which not, based on locations and transit routes? What land/rail transport alternatives might be beneficial. What remedies might be needed to reduce the probability of ship mishaps on the barrier reef?

All of these involve tradeoffs between economic cost and benefit to environmental interests. Movement of bulk cargos such as coal is MUCH cheaper directly by sea than by rail to an alternate embarkation point. However some ports involve much less exposure to the reef during transit than others. This is an issue too. Ultimately the economic costs associated with anything Australia imposes will be borne by Australia (I don't see China volunteering to subsidize Australia's interests here).

It's easy to assert that increased application of safety measures will add to efficiency without limit, but, unhappily that really isn't true. Indeed designers of aircraft, powerplants and vehicle control systems have learned repeatedly that sometimes a clutter of redundant indicators, control devices or human interventions can add to the risk of mishap, even though individually the measures that, together sometimes distract more than they benefit, are intended to improve things.

In short I think the Australian government has some tough choices to make here. Blaming it all on the hapless captain of the ship on the reef may be satisfying, but it isn't a solution. My opinion is that a system of well marked routes (with their number limited by careful analysis of preferred ports & routes); plus electronic (radar & geodata monitoring with radio communications) offers the best potential for a reliable (but not perfect) system at an acceptable (but not cheap) cost. I also believe in the long run, that is what your government will do.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

There is generally a surplus of coal in the world, but its price is largely dependent on transport costs.

Coal is free where it is found George. It is entirely transport costs to get it from there to where it is returned to the atmosphere.

Do we know whether it was a sand bank or not yet?

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

Coal is free where it is found George. It is entirely transport costs to get it from there to where it is returned to the atmosphere.

Do we know whether it was a sand bank or not yet

You anf George are miss informed. Coal largly never hits the markets anymore, neighter does crude for that matter. Mostly it is locked up in long term contracts, or else the production is owned my the user.

Quote:

This is a big jump in Maharashtra's foreign coal use. Up 40% from the 2.4 million tons imported in the year ended March 31.

The company's managing director Subrat Ratho made it clear this is a decision coming from the highest levels in India. As he noted, "We would like to import as little as we can because overseas coal is six-times more expensive than Indian coal. But it appears the Ministry of Power has made an assessment of how much coal the domestic companies will be able to supply to various states and have given us this target."

The decision is changing the face of coal imports across the country. India's thermal coal imports surged 100% in 2009, to 60 million tons. Up from just 30 million tons in 2008.

With India's focus now shifting to coal imports, a question is arising. Where will this international supply come from?

Nations like China and Japan have been competing hard for years to secure coal supplies in many of the world's richest regions like Indonesia and Australia. Being late to the party, India is now making its own push to capture supplies. By going forth and buying mines.

Last year, the Indian government gave explicit instructions to many of the nation's largest coal companies to buy overseas coal mines in the interest of nailing down import supply.

One such acquisition materialized this week, with major coal miner and power plant operator Essar Group announcing its purchase of the Aries coal mine in East Kalimantan, Indonesia. The project is reported to hold 100 million tons of thermal coal.

http://www.oilprice.com/article-demand-from-india-reshaping-the-global-coal-market.html

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

It's still free where it is hawk.

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@georgeob1,

I'll get back to you on this soon, George.

Thinking about what you've said.

(In the meantime, I'm growing very tired of the constant inane comments from Spendius on this thread. )

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@msolga,

What do you mean by inane Olga.

It was a post of your's that said the ship had grounded on a sand bank. If it did there's been a lot more inanity from your media than I can manage.

I've also said that coal is free where it lies. That's an economic fact.

1 Reply

@msolga,

Does he DO non-inane?

Ignore the ****** if he wearies you.

I do.

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@dlowan,

Which is a standard procedure for ladies, and those who only come under the biological definition of men, and represents the clinching argument for keeping such persons well away from any important decision making processes.

The idea that our legislatures are composed mainly of men because of discrimination is a straw man. I'm all for ladies, and their lickspittals and lackeys, running the show so long as it could be allowed that they would do a better job than men but putting up the shutters and keeping out any inconvenient inputs hardly gives me confidence that the time is yet upon us to take such a risk.

And dwollie's post is evidence that I am justified in thinking that. It's so uncool too.

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@spendius,

Quote:

What do you mean by inane Olga.
Quote:

Constant comments with little or no relevance to the topic ... on this & other threads.

Quote:
It was a post of your's that said the ship had grounded on a sand bank. If it did there's been a lot more inanity from your media than I can manage.

Most of the recent news updates to this thread have been posted by me, Spendius. You might or might not have noticed that.

So you found the "sand bank" reference in the Bloomberg thread I posted yesterday.

My response was that it was probably a mistake. Every single other report I have posted says the ship ran aground on the reef. Did you do any checking of your own local media?: the BBC, The Guardian, The Independent, The Scotsman ...?

Apparently not. Then again this morning:

Quote:
Do we know whether it was a sand bank or not yet?

Who exactly did you expect to do the checking for you, Spendius? If this was such a burning issue for you (It certainly isn't for me!) then what on earth stopped you from doing your own research? Do a little work for a change. For god's sake, you are not a helpless child!

No, it's much easier to carry on & piss on other peoples' efforts, isn't it?

I have never ONCE seen you make any effort like take the responsibility for starting & maintaining a thread, or providing some relevant research to a thread ...

Further, your constant inane comments have just about put me off participating in this & other threads which I actually have a lot of interest in.

I really wish you'd show a little more respect to the people here who actually want to have a decent conversation & to those who actually make an effort.

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Lets all chip in and buy spendi a plane ticket to a land that has pubs but no wifi. He can send us dispatches by carrier pigeon and he wouldnt be so damn annoying Very Happy

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@farmerman,

I just wish he'd let those of us actually interested in having a decent conversation be able do it, farmer, without the constant nonsense comments ...

1 Reply

@msolga,

Wait a minute Olga. It was a report on Bloomberg. And the part of it I saw had "sand bank" highlighted in larger letters and a different colour. That shows they chose the words with care. Bloomberg is American I think whereas Australian media is connected up to all sorts of vested interests and what go with them on such an interface.

All I'm asking is whether it was a sand bank or not. roger, I think it was, also expressed a wish to know. It is a matter of great significance and until it is cleared up all talk about the precious reef is inane to the highest degree.

I know it isn't clinching evidence but it seems the ship was freed by tugs which suggests a sand bank rather that a reef on which 100,000 tons had grounded at full speed.

Quote:

I have never ONCE seen you make any effort like take the responsibility for starting & maintaining a thread, or providing some relevant research to a thread ...

What you have seen is nowhere near all there is to see and I take some trouble to avoid wearing my erudition as a badge.

I think I show a great deal of respect to members of A2K. To allow some of the stuff I see posted to stand unchallenged is to show a lack of respect to them. And to not try to entertain them is unforgiveable.

1 Reply

@msolga,

Quote:

I just wish he'd let those of us actually interested in having a decent conversation be able do it, farmer, without the constant nonsense comments ...

I presume "decent conversation" is conversation you approve of and likewise "nonsense" is what you think it is.

You can have any conversation you want by e-mail and PM with whoever you want. This is a debate forum with an audience. You cannot expect to be allowed to present any views you fancy without allowing that they might be opposed in such a forum. What do you think "forum" means?

Quote:

Which is the opposite of a one-way megaphone.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

Lets all chip in and buy spendi a plane ticket to a land that has pubs but no wifi. He can send us dispatches by carrier pigeon and he wouldnt be so damn annoying

A type of Ignore without actually saying so and totally inane.

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@spendius,

I don't know why "sandbank" was highlighted in red.

There may have been a sand bank involved, who knows?

I have read umpteen reports, from a pretty wide variety of sources, but none of which have mentioned a sandbank.

I have seen a number of photographs & videos showing damage to the reef.

I'll leave it at this.

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@msolga,

Quote:

I really wish you'd show a little more respect to the people here who actually want to have a decent conversation & to those who actually make an effort.

I have decided to take issue with that crass inanity. It means nothing but gives a faint impression it does to casual or unintelligent viewers.

On the thread about evolution being a dangerous idea someone mentioned J.S.Mill. I think it was a name dropping job. There's a lot of that on A2K.

Anyway- I went to my library to see what Mr Mill had to say and found his three essays on religion and a book which reprints the essays of John Morley originally published in the Fortnightly Review in 1874 which concern themselves with Mill's writings on the subject. I read all of Mr Morley's essays, which quote extensively from Mill's writings, and take up 59 pages of dense and erudite prose.

I then tried to get the essentials, or some of them, into a post short enough to be acceptable to A2Kers after some hours of reading and taking notes. It's on page 26 of that thread.

This was followed by --"pepper and flyshit" , that I have begun to resemble "a squashed boneless snail", a "what the hell are you talking about?", some tripe from Setanta which was all obvious stuff and which was complimented gushingly as "an intelligent post" by a poster who claimed to have a "sneaking suspicion that I had been bounced out of more than one pub" (which I never have once), that I'm a "flannel mouthed gobshite with nothing to contribute" by Setanta who doesn't even read my posts and boasts about it as if it's a superior attribute, that I'm "full of ****" and should "take a trip", that I have "regular diarrhea (sic) of poor speech(sic) and that I have a "fevered mind". None of which requires any reading, any intelligence or any literary style beyond the first grade.

If you think Olga that I show less respect to A2K than that lot you must be out of your mind.

What did you do to show respect? Watch the News? Quote a Bloomberg report which you can't stand by. Insult me. Have indignation thrumming festivities. Jumping on bandwagons which you don't know the destination of.

Come off it willya? Shifting millions of tons of coal from the seams in Australia to the power stations of China is a dirty and tough business in which men are engaged. And you sit there pontificating in your lounge about one event in that process which looks to have been not only grossly exaggerated but the subject of some devious machinations.

And what for? To show off is what for.

Respect??? You don't know the meaning of the word.

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Barrier Reef oil spill April 4, 2010

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