11
   

Barrier Reef oil spill April 4, 2010

 
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 05:21 pm
@dyslexia,
I assume you mean that comprehension of my posts has reached levels from which it is impossible to imagine further depths.

Good.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 05:26 pm
(my last word on pilots, unless the subject comes up in further news updates)

OK

So what I now understand is that marine pilots are very expensive in the US compared to the only other example I know of, Germany. (Thank you, Walter.)

And that there is nepotism in this industry in the US, especially. (I just Googled "nepotism + marine navigation pilots" & came up with little, mainly some US examples.)

Whether expense & nepotism are largely the US experience, compared to other countries, I'm not sure. If it is pretty much the US experience, then it does not automatically follow that this would be the case in Australia.

I am none the wiser about the cost of marine pilots compared to the cost of cleaning up after "accidents" in any particular area, though by the sounds of things, this would be considerably more expensive in the US, than say, Germany. But never mind, I'll leave it at this. Not to worry.

However, I note that the Australian government's 2004 proposal to International Maritime Organisation was not rejected on the basis of cost, but:
Quote:
...Led by Singapore and supported by international shipping groups, countries vetoed compulsory pilotage for the area, saying it overrode principles of freedom of navigation in straits used for international shipping; debate ended without resolution.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/barrier-reef-at-risk-from-failure-of-diplomacy/story-e6frg6nf-1225852024655

Finally (while fully acknowledging that I am no expert in this field at all) I can fully appreciate why the Australian government (& now all Australian political parties ) believed in 2004, & still believes, that there is a need for navigation pilots (specially trained for the local circumstances, plus other much more stringent surveillance measures) in this extremely environmentally sensitive World Hermitage site. My non-expert view is that safely navigating commercial ships ( which often take shortcuts) through the individual reefs & islands of the Reef, is quite a unique challenge & well worth the extra cost to minimize the occurrence of future accidents :

Quote:
The Great Barrier Reef is the world's largest reef system[1][2] composed of over 2,900 individual reefs[3] and 900 islands stretching for over 2,600 kilometres (1,600 mi) over an area of approximately 344,400 square kilometres (133,000 sq mi).[4][5] The reef is located in the Coral Sea, off the coast of Queensland in northeast Australia.

The Great Barrier Reef can be seen from outer space and is the world's biggest single structure made by living organisms.[6] This reef structure is composed of and built by billions of tiny organisms, known as coral polyps.[7] This reef supports a wide diversity of life, and was selected as a World Heritage Site in 1981.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Barrier_Reef
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 05:55 pm
@spendius,
yes, of course, that's exactly what I mean.
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 09:26 pm
@msolga,
Bugger their "freedom" to take stupid risks.


Do USians elect pilots, as they do so many people holding various jobs that most people don't? Like, apparently (though this may have been a joke) dog-catchers?

That has been posited as a major cause of corruption in public life in the US....as people want to make big bucks while they hold a post.


hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 09:50 pm
@dlowan,
Quote:
That has been posited as a major cause of corruption in public life in the US....as people want to make big bucks while they hold a post
You think too small, the credo is make as much money as you can, and use whatever leverage you can gain over other people to do it. There is a counter culture that believes in doing for others and in the charms of poverty, but they have no power. They are an amusement, not to be taken seriously.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 10:10 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

(my last word on pilots, unless the subject comes up in further news updates)

OK

So what I now understand is that marine pilots are very expensive in the US compared to the only other example I know of, Germany. (Thank you, Walter.)

And that there is nepotism in this industry in the US, especially. (I just Googled "nepotism + marine navigation pilots" & came up with little, mainly some US examples.)

Whether expense & nepotism are largely the US experience, compared to other countries, I'm not sure. If it is pretty much the US experience, then it does not automatically follow that this would be the case in Australia.

I am none the wiser about the cost of marine pilots compared to the cost of cleaning up after "accidents" in any particular area, though by the sounds of things, this would be considerably more expensive in the US, than say, Germany. But never mind, I'll leave it at this. Not to worry.


I believe that is because you selectively read and assimilate information (on this subject at least) in a way that appears designed mainly to maintain your prejudices and fixed beliefs. I was very clear that the cost of providing pilots on the barrier reef, often hundreds of miles from their destination or point of departure ports, would be prohibitive mainly due to the distance from destination/point of departure and the time & cost onsumed in getting pilots to/from the ships they ride. The length of the barrier reef and the widely separated ports it separartes from the open ocean makes this a profoundly different problem than that associated with most ports - even in happily perfect Germany.

You also noted a point I had overlooked with respect to Singapore's earlier objection to national regulation of the right of innocent transit of recognized international sea lanes, even those in the territorial waters of a nation. This is in fact a very important, time honored and fixed point of international law . While Australia might try to make the use of their pilots a precondition of entry into an Australian port, most maritime nations would refuse to accept a claim for the regulation of such innocent passage (a term of art) particularly where recognized sea lanes are involved. I suspect that alone ends the discussion.

However, I will silently await the action you forecast by the government of Australia to require marine pilots around & within the barrier reef by ships of all nations. I believe it will be a very long time coming.
[/quote]
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 11:54 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I was very clear that the cost of providing pilots on the barrier reef, often hundreds of miles from their destination or point of departure ports, would be prohibitive mainly due to the distance from destination/point of departure and the time & cost consumed in getting pilots to/from the ships they ride. The length of the barrier reef and the widely separated ports it separartes from the open ocean makes this a profoundly different problem than that associated with most ports
I also like to think I made that point very early on. Yet here we are wondering why pilots was not debated on its own merits initially rather than be resurrected every now and then as a supposedly new idea. Clearly some people refuse to accept the negatives of pilots in preventing sea accidents/incidents.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 01:10 am
@georgeob1,
I have been very civil in my interactions with you on this thread so far, George, (despite you accusing me of "exaggerating" the situation. When I asked for examples of where exactly I had exaggerated, you failed to do so. )

So may I now say, in response to you:

Quote:
I believe that is because you selectively read and assimilate information (on this subject at least) in a way that appears designed mainly to maintain your prejudices and fixed beliefs.


My understanding of this issue comes from constant monitoring of the respectable Australian media, particularly the ABC NEWS (national broadcaster) & the AGE newspaper. I have regularly posted news reports from those sources here, so you would have seen them, if you were paying attention. If you don't like what I've learned from my reading of those reports, well then that is just too bad.
"Selective reading '', what absolute piffle!
You don't think you've been at all "selective", or self serving, in your posts here? Wink

I have in no way presented myself as an expert on this subject (unlike you!) & do not appreciate being patronized by you because you do not agree with what I've posted. I would have more respect for your views it you countered my views with arguments rather than demeaning personal comments.

Quote:
I was very clear that the cost of providing pilots on the barrier reef


I don't believe you were at all, George. But you can continue believe that if you want.
Further, I don't believe you've even considered the special circumstances of the Great Barrier Reef in your responses. Most of what you've had to say has been about problems & costs associated with marine pilots in the US, which with all due respects, has little relevance to the situation in Great Barrier Reef .

Quote:
However, I will silently await the action you forecast by the government of Australia to require marine pilots around & within the barrier reef by ships of all nations. I believe it will be a very long time coming.


I do wish you would read my posts more carefully, George! I have in no way predicted anything! I have merely stated what the Australian government (along with all other political parties) has recommended ..... i.e. the use of navigation pilots in the Great Barrier Reef, both on 2004 in a proposal to the International Maritime Organisation & again now, after this unfortunate incident. I also said I support that view, because of the unique environmental features of the Reef. I do not, however, have a crystal ball capable of predicting the future, so I have absolutely no idea of what will happen from here on.

Should you choose to respond to this post, George, I would really appreciate it if you stuck to responding to what I have actually said, & not resort to further patronizing or denigrating personal comments.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 04:10 am
@dyslexia,
Quote:
yes, of course, that's exactly what I mean.


Well then dys--what exactly did you find impossible to comprehend in, say, the post that partially dealt with Lambism? If you'll point out where you had difficulties I will try to explain.

What scientific distinction do you draw between the "neatness" of whales and that of bluebottles?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 04:21 am
@msolga,
Quote:
My understanding of this issue comes from constant monitoring of the respectable Australian media


But Olga--there is a widely held view, which I share, that there are no respectable media sources. In the UK the staff are known as "hacks" or "reptiles" and work in Grub Street.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 08:10 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
I was very clear that the cost of providing pilots on the barrier reef


I don't believe you were at all, George. But you can continue believe that if you want.
Further, I don't believe you've even considered the special circumstances of the Great Barrier Reef in your responses. Most of what you've had to say has been about problems & costs associated with marine pilots in the US, which with all due respects, has little relevance to the situation in Great Barrier Reef .

I think this is what bothers me the most. That given this situation the ecological concern for the reef takes a stand-by seat to "economic concerns." It is the wrong conversation entirely.

T
K
O
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 11:27 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
That given this situation the ecological concern for the reef takes a stand-by seat to "economic concerns."


I would take some convincing TK that if it was a choice between the reef being blown up and your standard of living falling 10% you would not choose the former.

As you're not faced with such a choice your flouncing magnanimity is rather gratuitous and hardy befitting adult conversation.

The idea that you are concerned over the environment is laughable.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 11:47 am
@msolga,
I try to confine most of my remarks to those elements of the subject at hand on which I have some real knowledge to offer. Beyond that I also try to distinguish between knowledge and opinion. Thus I said that " I believe that you exaggerate the damage to the reefs". There should be nothing personally offensive in that.

I was and am very clear that marking channels and installing some radar monitoring stations for traffic through them would be a far less costly and at least equally as effective a solution as pilots. Neither solution will be foolproof. I doubt seriously that Australia will undertake to deploy and require pilots and, in the unlikely event that it does, believe that Singapore and other maritime nations will again object to an imposed regulation on innocent passage through recognized channels.

I do not believe that ecological concerns should necessarily trump competing economic or human interests on every issue. I appreciate your concern for the preservation of the barrier reef and its unique characteristics, but the fact is it has survived thus far and is likely to continue. There are other natural hazards to its growth, such as starfish infestation that are a much greater threat to it than shipping. The natural environment itself is neither stable nor without its own hazards. Competing human activity and interests are not utterly unimportant.

It appears to me that the competing economic interests in this case are all Australian: the desire to export coal and other commodities and import goods to the cities along the eastern coast. These are issues you will have to resolve for yourselves.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 05:24 pm
@georgeob1,
George I have no desire to become involved in a prolonged "did so"/"did not", argument, but ..

Quote:
I said that " I believe that you exaggerate the damage to the reefs".


And I asked you for examples of where I'd done that. You didn't respond.

Quote:
I was and am very clear that marking channels and installing some radar monitoring stations for traffic through them would be a far less costly and at least equally as effective a solution as pilots.


But previously you said:

Quote:
I was very clear that the cost of providing pilots on the barrier reef


Your only mention of pilots' actual wages/costs was in relation to the US - (I just checked.) I also asked about the relative costs of employing pilots compared to the cost of clean-ups. But, as I said before, never mind.

Quote:
I do not believe that ecological concerns should necessarily trump competing economic or human interests on every issue.


I already knew that was your view when it comes shipping, George. I'm curious, is there any example in which you believe they should?

Quote:
I doubt seriously that Australia will undertake to deploy and require pilots and, in the unlikely event that it does, believe that Singapore and other maritime nations will again object to an imposed regulation on innocent passage through recognized channels.


I seriously doubt Australia would be successful in another appeal to the International Maritime Organization, either. So maybe they won't even try again. I suspect the shipping nations would vote in support of there own interests again, as in 2004. Whether Australia does intend to make another attempt in the future, I have no idea.

Quote:
It appears to me that the competing economic interests in this case are all Australian: the desire to export coal and other commodities and import goods to the cities along the eastern coast. These are issues you will have to resolve for yourselves.


You don't believe there might be mutual interests here, George? Between the sellers & buyers/transporters of Australian coal & gas? (Personally I'd prefer that Australia did not export so much coal, because of environment concerns. But that's another issue ..) You cannot conceive of possible resolution that might work for both sides? I would seriously hope that there could be, especially since there's going to be a huge increase in the number of cargo ships passing through the Great Barrier Reef in the very near future.







msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 05:56 pm
Update: I note that there will be a delay, till July, in applying these measures. Also that these new rules will require the approval of the International Maritime Organisation, for those reef areas outside Australia's territorial waters. So, fingers crossed, I guess?:

Quote:
Ships to be tracked on reef
MARK DAVIS
April 19, 2010/the AGE



SHIPS travelling along the Great Barrier Reef's southern fringes will be tracked by maritime authorities to reduce the risk of another incident like the grounding of the Chinese bulk ore carrier Shen Neng 1.

Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese announced yesterday that ships in the southern part of the reef marine park would have to regularly report their location and route to authorities. This would be backed up by radio and satellite tracking of ships to improve safety and further protect one of the country's most precious environmental assets, he said.

The new rules effectively extend requirements that apply to ships in the northern part of the reef park to a large area that runs roughly from Mackay to Bundaberg and extends more than 100 kilometres east of the Queensland coastline.

Mr Albanese said the rules, which had been recommended by the Australian Maritime Safety Authority, will come into effect from July next year.

The delay was to allow maritime authorities to set up infrastructure. The rules need to be approved by the International Maritime Organisation, as they apply to areas outside Australia's territorial waters.



http://www.theage.com.au/national/ships-to-be-tracked-on-reef-20100418-smmh.html
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 06:01 pm
I don't understand why there isn't more support of George's suggestion to use radar and other technological methods to accomplish this goal. Not only will it be cheaper but infinitely more environmentally friendly over the long run.

Cycloptichorn
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 06:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
(Being no expert in these things, as I said before ...) I can't see why that wouldn't be supported. Personally I'm in favour of any measures to reduce the possibility of further damage to the Reef. The discussion about marine pilots has come about after repeated calls from Australian politicians & marine authorities in media reports. (Along with other surveillance recommendations like the one I just posted above.)
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 06:22 pm
A very interesting & informative article, from a business perspective, which I found yesterday .

Quote:
Great Barrier Reef at Risk as Coal-Ship Traffic May Jump 67%
By James Paton/Bloonberg.com

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/data?pid=avimage&iid=ieA3iebIFyko

April 9 (Bloomberg) -- The corals, whales and giant clams of Australia’s Great Barrier Reef are in the path of a “coal highway” to China that may see shipments jump 67 percent by 2016, increasing the threat of an ecological disaster after a coal carrier ran aground last week.

Trade at Gladstone port in Queensland may rise to about 140 million tons, mostly coal, in six years from 84 million tons in the year ending in June, Gladstone Ports Corp. Chief Executive Officer Leo Zussino said in an interview. The port was the loading point for the Shen Neng 1, which hit a sand bank on April 3 at full speed carrying 68,000 metric tons of coal and 975 tons of fuel oil.

“It’s only a matter of time before a serious oil spill occurs unless we have a better system for regulating the traffic,” said Peter Harrison, a professor at Southern Cross University in New South Wales who has studied the impact of oil pollution on coral reefs for three decades. “It’s a difficult place to navigate.”

The reef, as much as 65 kilometers wide, is a breeding ground for humpback whales and is host to the world’s largest collection of corals, more than 1,500 species of tropical fish and more than 200 kinds of sea birds. Australia may tighten up monitoring of vessels travelling through the reef and require more pilots to guide ships, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said.

Gladstone is one of 10 major ports near the World Heritage listed site, according to the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority. Bob Brown, the senator who heads the Australian Greens party, said this week companies are “making a coal highway” out of the reef.

Gas Boom

About 1,500 ships are expected to pass through Gladstone this year, said an official at the port, who declined to be named because of company policy.

Gladstone will also be the port of departure for liquefied natural gas vessels starting in 2014. LNG vessels leaving the harbor in the year ending June 2016 will carry about 10 million tons of LNG, mostly to Asia, according to the port operator. BG Group Plc, Santos Ltd. and Origin Energy Ltd. are among companies planning to build LNG terminals at Gladstone. ...<cont>


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=a05Q_eBkgFrg
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 07:38 pm
@msolga,
when we needed a new tighter nav system in the early 70's I was part of a student seismic team that spent time blowing up sections of the Aleutians so that we could set up LORAN C grid towers. And this was done in less than 2 years from feasibility to construction. So tracking ships with todays tech (satellites and really sharp radars and other gizmos) is a way to "get ready" for that onslaught of coal and LNG transfer. I know from gas exploration in the US, every state and Canada has a transfer and enviro "feedstock tax" levied on the drilling and then this will be transfered to a "forever" tax thats calculated on the gas thats pumped.

Im certain that we will be losing some of the barrier reef to accidents even with the gizmos in operation. All we can do is to limit the harm. Making a punitive (say 2X) collection part of the fee of transfer may also be effective to curb the sea captains who just wish to ignore courtesy. Also, since this is gonna be going to China, we make the Chinese clients equally bear the cleanup and environmental costs along with the shipping concern
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 07:40 pm
@farmerman,
why are you talking about radar? Is there some reason GPS does not work for pin-pointing ship location?
 

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