JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 10:02 pm
Ditto pueo and setanta
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 12:17 am
nah, perception, i think he's quite needed where he's at right now. it is only healthy to have some strong articulated voice in the dissent in any society.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 08:21 am
Perception,

If you want to debate Cuba, I am all for it. I am not a fan of Castro, but without question American policy toward Cuba is insane.

Cuba is a sovereign country, the US has no business trying to influence its government. Yet, the US maintains an ludicrous economic embargo on Cuba.

The irony is that Castro is really a US invention. Castro has lasted so long because the US has made him into a symbol of a warrior against the imperial giant.

He has a lot of fans in Central America . Remember that in central America the US supported death squads in their mad paranoid campaign against communism. Castro became a voice against this, and you shouldn't be amazed that many people appreciated this.

What is ridiculous is that US policy is keeping Castro in power. Communism has widely been rejected in most of the world. Russia is capatalist, China is undergoing economic reforms.

Why is Castro still in power? It's simple. Castro will continue to claim that his country's problems are caused by the US embargo. And, how can we know if he is right or not? Without the embargo either Cuba will still fail, proving that the US is correct, and Castro will fall from power. Or, perhaps Castro is right Cuba will flourish and we will all live happily ever after.

MY guess is that without the embargo, Cuba would have been forced to change directions - at least when the Soviets went away.

But the US seems to want to keep him in power.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:07 am
This would be as good a time as any to explore how we turned Castro into what he is today.
0 Replies
 
JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:29 am
Oh I cann answer that one! He did not bow the the whims of President Eisenhower and his staff. Plus you know the Che, a real revolutionary he was and a true beleiver.

Sounds familiar, can you guess what I am thinking?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:36 am
Quote:
This would be as good a time as any to explore how we turned Castro into what he is today.
And this also brings up, for me, the question of... how explicitly have political theorists in the US set out to, at any given time, create an enemy upon which the state's attention can be focused? At the fall of communism, the enemy-less interim was very short indeed.

Is this a function of group life? Not all states seem to operate in such black and white terms. Is it a function of a system where so much of the economic activity is related to armaments and related industry? What is up here?
0 Replies
 
JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:40 am
We Blatham I have always felt that we, the people, are responsible for our government and that there is no they.

Especially the House is a governing body of direct creation for the people of the US. Congressmen and women are directly elected from small districts within the various states (forget about the Tejas debacle). They stabd for election every two years and they, Congress hold the purse strings.

So I guess what I am saying is that we get what we pay for.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 10:02 am
joanne

I think it a mix. There is a them, and they ain't us. Our kids aren't going to be knocking on Cheney's door at halloween, nor are out daughters likely to marry their sons. We can read the newspaper, but the chances are low that we can sit down over breakfast and chat about Palestine with the corporate head who owns that paper.

Activism and organization are possible, yes. And effective, sometimes, yes. But it's a fight, and not a cooperative effort.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 01:28 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Perception,

If you want to debate Cuba, I am all for it. I am not a fan of Castro, but without question American policy toward Cuba is insane.

Cuba is a sovereign country, the US has no business trying to influence its government. Yet, the US maintains an ludicrous economic embargo on Cuba.

The irony is that Castro is really a US invention. Castro has lasted so long because the US has made him into a symbol of a warrior against the imperial giant.

He has a lot of fans in Central America . Remember that in central America the US supported death squads in their mad paranoid campaign against communism. Castro became a voice against this, and you shouldn't be amazed that many people appreciated this.

What is ridiculous is that US policy is keeping Castro in power. Communism has widely been rejected in most of the world. Russia is capatalist, China is undergoing economic reforms.

Why is Castro still in power? It's simple. Castro will continue to claim that his country's problems are caused by the US embargo. And, how can we know if he is right or not? Without the embargo either Cuba will still fail, proving that the US is correct, and Castro will fall from power. Or, perhaps Castro is right Cuba will flourish and we will all live happily ever after.

MY guess is that without the embargo, Cuba would have been forced to change directions - at least when the Soviets went away.

But the US seems to want to keep him in power.


If you want to debate Castro and Cuba I believe it would be courteous to start another thread-----McG might could be rightly anoyed if we hi-jack this thread. If you want to start the thread I will be happy to participate.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 06:35 pm
blatham,

I read the article and believe you have insulted intellectuals. I'm going to leave it at that because you seem to like him a lot.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 08:51 pm
I figure but for the ridiculous Cuban sanctions, trade and tourism would have bumped Castro off a generation ago. I suspect that would have made it a bit less unsettled in Africa and in Latin America, too.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:14 pm
Canajuns (and a lot of Europeans) would prefer that the U.S. keep up its sanctions of Cuba. Keeps the U.S. tourists away. Or at least keeps them to a comparatively low percentage of the crowd. Some do go each year through the Buffalo/Toronto route.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Nov, 2003 09:17 pm
It's obviously really important to keep this from turning into an interesting, thoughtful disussion.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 11:59 am
craven

I confess I'm surprised by your response. His voice is strident, surely, though that's true of firefighters in California right now as well. So I'll assume you don't believe there is a fire, or that it's on a different mountain than the one Compsky carries his water towards. You could fault him on facts - a dangerous undertaking, if you ever hear him in debate...he has a memory like no one I've ever known. Or you could fault him on what he does with those facts - some imbalance in analysis through prejudice. But I'm not sure where your disagreement might sit because you are being careful not to make me cry, unlike setanta, who puts spiders in my pajamas.
0 Replies
 
Hazlitt
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 03:31 pm
Chomsky
I sometimes wonder why it is that we must either love or hate every political thinker. Chomsky is not a man whom I'd follow out the window, but then, neither do I disagree with all that he says. For me he is a sort of gad-fly. If there is a bag of hot air floating about, Chomsky is always there with his long sharp needle.

As for the original Chomsky quote, posted I believe by McG, to which so many have taken strong exception, I find find myself largely in agreement with Chomsky. The oldest trick in the demagog's bag is to scare the population with some imaginary threat. It has worked over and over. It may be that the political sophisticates who hang around AK2 would not be fooled again (except neo-cons), especially so soon, but most people don't much care what is going on in the world, don't watch the news (except for the news and views of murders), and think that if the President says there is a threat, then, there must really be a threat.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 03:35 pm
I used my duck tape and plastic sheeting and made a greenhouse.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 03:51 pm
Hazlitt

Good to see you. Recall when CNN was "all antrax, all the time". Of course the administration tried to frighten (the mushroom cloud images).

Here's a piece on Chompsky from today's NY Time magazine... http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/02/magazine/02QUESTIONS.html
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 06:14 pm
blatham wrote:
craven

I confess I'm surprised by your response. His voice is strident, surely, though that's true of firefighters in California right now as well. So I'll assume you don't believe there is a fire, or that it's on a different mountain than the one Compsky carries his water towards. You could fault him on facts - a dangerous undertaking, if you ever hear him in debate...he has a memory like no one I've ever known. Or you could fault him on what he does with those facts - some imbalance in analysis through prejudice. But I'm not sure where your disagreement might sit because you are being careful not to make me cry, unlike setanta, who puts spiders in my pajamas.


My qualms with him are that he seems to have defined himself as a dissident, nothing wrong with that but when it's a definition of one's being it indicates a tendency in thought. In shourt I'd rather hear from a thinker than a dissident.

His use of facts in his largely rhetorical arguments is misleading and in some cases simply absurd.

For example, he played up the fear that Cuna might be a US target. He mentioned the US claim that Cuba was making chemical weapons as his evidence.

That was a bit absurd, the US claim was such an obviosu fabrication that I am certain that some regretted it's utterance, but more importantly the claimwas made only to undermine Carter's visit and was not used again.

Lots of us justifiably challenge those who would say that a slippery slope leads to ruin. And these arguments can be tricky. When people were saying that the limited evidence in Saddam was going to produce a mushroom cloud I maintained that it was a bit of hyperbole. And the opposite also needs censure because they are as guilty of the brainfarts.

"The sky is falling" is a chorus from both side's extremities and it appeals to the stupid and dogmatic while alienating the rest.

From what I've read he seems more caught up in his role than with objectivity. He makes some good points but in what I have seen they are the minority of his statements and the majority looks like a role, a role that is big on dissent and not as much with objectivity and reason.

I don't fault him for being a dissident or being extreme. I fault him for letting those qualities affect the quality of his thinking. It's indicative of a position he holds and views the world through, not a position the world is in and he comments impartially on.

It's a failing of everyone in politics so it shouldn't be a huge knock on him or anything. I simply charge that his objectivity suffers because his role is not objective. A dissident is rarely objective, they can serve a very valid purpose as a countermeasure to sycophants but subscribing to their ideology is probably unwise. They start with a position and argue from there.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 07:09 pm
"For example, he played up the fear that Cuna might be a US target. He mentioned the US claim that Cuba was making chemical weapons as his evidence.

"That was a bit absurd, the US claim was such an obviosu fabrication that I am certain that some regretted it's utterance, but more importantly the claimwas made only to undermine Carter's visit and was not used again."

I dunno, Duce, I think you're being a little absurd yourself here. If the US gov fabricates an anti-Cuba card and someone picks up on it and draws attention to it, the government carries the can, not the messenger.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 08:24 pm
I said that it was a fabricated claim, what I called absurd was that Noam greatly exaggerated the "threat" to Cuba posed by the US.
Again, NOAM was absurd for HIS claim, regardless of the absurdity of the american one.
0 Replies
 
 

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