perception
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 10:49 pm
Tartarin wrote:
No wonder Bush got to be president.


Is that your very best "elitist" opinion Tart? Laughing
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:02 am
last that I remember the opposite of Elite is Vulgar.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:07 am
Tart and ehBeth

LOL, both of you.

Set

I'm not going to get in a fight with you here, but your head's up your ass on this topic. You are going to argue that a national population is not a unit about which anyone might make a generalized statement which has merit? Particularly, a statement such as his, which isn't of the 'french are snooty' variety, but simply the rather obvious claim that a population is manipulatable - meaning that enough individuals within that population can be affected such that the entire nation, as a unit, changes direction. Churchill, Mandela, Ghandi, Eban, etc, all caused redirections of populations, and there's nothing untoward about making the claim they did.

As to claiming Chompsky knows nothing of politics or that his analysis is faulty...hog poop I say. Who the hell are you measuring him against?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:15 am
Did I mention that "The World According to Cav" is going to be made into a movie starring Robin Williams? Oh wait....that might be Garp...

Chomsky was born with a very useful name. If anyone does challenge his political views, he can just say "No am Chomsky....please, go away."
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:50 am
cav

That joke, having now appeared here, is sufficiently pre-disastered such that you can feel safe moving into it.
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:52 am
Hey, not all of them are winners....
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 10:47 am
BLatham, as someone who has more experience with his head up his ass than anyone i've ever met, i will bow to your superior knowledge of the condition.

The old "I"m not going to ________, but . . . " style is very complimentary to your rhetorical method.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 01:53 pm
'Nuff of the ass-grabbin', now kids ... some folks might get the wrong idea, and then you could get swamped with uninvited advances :wink:
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:00 pm
Yes, and please leave me out of it as well. Chomsky is a brilliant linguist, I don't agree with his political pontificating, and quite frankly, that's where it ends for me.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:06 pm
I'd be interested in hearing why any of you respect or disrespect his opinions.

Thus far it's evident that some agree with his opinions and some don't. But I already knew that would happen. Istead of stating so vehementy THAT you agree or disagree with him why not state the WHY and give details?

BTW, a ew of you guys have been making a fallacious appeal to authority, as beth has pointed out.

There is no "authority" in politics. Being human is what qualifies one in politics as politics is just the human way of sorting out what to do.

If you think his opinions are so horrible explain which ones and why. IF you think his nickname should be sliced bread explain why.

It'd be nice to read you guys substantiate the like/dislike of him.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:13 pm
His political theory is, to say the least, eccentric: what can one make, for example, of the ex cathedra judgement that James Madison "designed a system that made sure democracy couldn't function" (The Common Good (Real Story Series) by: Noam Chomsky, David Barsamian, Arthur Naiman)? Madison's notable contribution to the theory and practice of democracy was to counterpose deliberative democracy to direct democracy, and to note that with direct democracy power lies with the best-organised and most articulate sectional interests. Good government lies in the management of competing interests, incommensurable values and competing claims to scarce resources. It is not possible to infer any of this from Chomsky's remarks.

It is in the policy ruminations that Chomsky's declarations are at their most hair-raisingly tendentious. He damns globalisation as a ruse for corporations to exploit the masses - without so much as a mention of the copious empirical research on rising living standards and the beneficial effect on Third World economies of foreign direct investment. International debt? Just default on it - and never mind the fact that those who will end up paying are the developing nations themselves, who need foreign capital to fund the current account deficits that are the corollary of economic development, and who would pay a much higher cost for that capital if debt were cancelled or defaulted upon.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:15 pm
Interesting, I'd like to hear more. I am not too familiar with him (not a big fan of pundits).
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:20 pm
CRITICIZING THE CRITIC

It's not at all ironic that Chomsky's political ideas have been marginalized in the U.S. He is still treated as intellectual royalty in Europe and Japan, where he's frequently featured as a talking head in the mass media. In this country, though, when his political views are considered at all (which is almost never), he's generally portrayed as a ranting conspiracy theorist. Critics have accused Chomsky of founding arguments on highly selective samplings of evidence, of overstating and exaggerating his case, of descending into a kind of moral relativism that favors left wing thugs over right wing thugs, and of failing to provide adequate, practical alternatives to replace existing institutions.

To be fair, Chomsky has said repeatedly that no one should automatically accept his analysis of Western capitalism. He merely suggests that people should discover for themselves, through rational inquiry, whether his description of the world is accurate. What his critics call a conspiracy theory, Chomsky calls "institutional analysis." In dozens of books, he has meticulously documented the historical development and specific abuses that have led to the bastardized corporate-controlled democracy Americans currently enjoy.

Agree or disagree with his political theories, Noam Chomsky always stimulates the kind of lively, outside-the-box debate that we just don't get enough of in this country. At the core, he is a child of the Enlightenment, a radical democrat and humanist who believes wholeheartedly that freedom and democracy not only improve our lives but may actually be essential for the survival of our species. His personal conviction is that any society based entirely on profit-mongering and acquisition is destined to self-destruct. It's a conviction that -- regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum -- might be worth giving some serious consideration.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 02:55 pm
McG

Thanks for the link----I picked out one Belief of Chomsky which sort of summarizes my dislike for him:

According to Chomsky, the elites who control and benefit from the American political system preserve that system by marginalizing alternative political views, selectively reporting on the consequences of United States foreign policy, and creating political apathy among the general populace by encouraging them to watch professional sports and TV sitcoms rather than actively participate in the political process.

He accuses the elites who control of marginalizing alternative views-----He cannot be serious-----it is good old American common sense and pragmatism which marginalize some alternative views especially his.

selectively reporting on the consequences of United States foreign policy----Where is this sort of selective reporting which enhances United States foreign policy----I would postulate the exact opposite instead.
Most reporting, especially the NYTimes attempts to produce just the opposite perception in the mind of world opinion.

I also believe that the American public gets so sick of the "bad news" projected by our "outrageous propaganda machine" that they recoil from the constant hammering , and retreat to a more congenial environment of sports, music and lighthearted comedy. Show me any efforts controlling the news and any attempt to create a "propaganda machine" that hasn't ended in disastrous failure.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 04:00 pm
McG - i don't quite see your problem with Chomsky's remark on Madison. To me it reads quite as what you proceed to write underneath, that is the attempt to avoid the tyranny of direct democracy. Which Madison indisputably did write about in many places. One might add, not only the direct democracy, Madison would get quite close to the Schumpeterian ideal of democracy - that is a very hesitant, delegative kind of democracy, where the rulers are elected and vested with power to decide for that is in the best interest of the country. (mass, or 'factions' being to dangerous and destabilizing).
I don't know the context where Chomsky's one sentence that you quote was placed against, just didn't see the discrepancy from the bit you posted. It is unfair to make judgments on the basis of torn out bits, so treat this as my opinion on the subject rather than defense or attack on Chomsky. I agree with a lot he writes about, don't agree with the 'scientific methods' he deploys.
But about the media, that I have read. And have to agree with Chomsky, Ferguson, and other. Just look into the finances. All national media (newspaper, radio, TV) in this gigantic country are owned by twenty something megacompanies. I do find that somewhat disturbing. If you read news in languages other than English (I read newspapers in about 5 languages - us. and europe, part of my job), you have to note the one-dimensionality of the us international reporting (to put it kindly) in the national press. compare the quality of financial times world news reporting to the new york times, or even washington post. when there is an international conflict or a tense situation, the news in the u.s. daily newspaper is mostly usefull as an information on the us government's standpoint only.
phew, the longest rant in months, apologies.
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 05:26 pm
Chomsky must be doing something right to serve as the pinata for such a disparate group.

I'm curious if it's the photo with Fidel that may be part of the reason for the fierceness. Now that Saddam is out of the way (as if), perhaps we should take him on next...
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 06:15 pm
Chomsky is best at pointing out the facts and inconsistancies in the American popular view that most Americans don't want to think about.

I had the pleasure of attending one of his talks several years back (not long after the first Gulf war).

He spoke about the irony that United States, the site of one of the most successful genocides in history, would presume to be the policeman to punish a nation for the gas attack on the Kurds.

And he pointed out that "Tomahawks" were our main weapon against this "genocide". Oh the irony of history.

Are his facts correct - indoubtably. Is his viewpoint out of the mainstream - surely. Are these valid ideas that should be part of the American consciousness - I believe so.

The fact is, we in the United States don't think very much about our own sins. Most Americans don't want to deal with the fact that we were part of a genocide here - a mere 150 years ago.

America wants to build up a mythology of moral stature. We want to be be the beacon of liberty and the savior of the world.

Chomsky points out that the facts haven't always matched this mythology.

This is the reason that so many are upset with Chomsky, and why so many of us respect him. But I think American intellectual culture would be much worse off without him.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:12 pm
You pretty much nailed it, EBrown!

Meanwhile, Chomsky is getting a lot of attention from those who revile him. Maybe they'll learning something, even as they're trying not to! So all this protest from the right may serve to acquaint them with a few moral truths.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 08:32 pm
craven

Definitely time for you to be introduced to Chompsky. I'll just note (set will love this one) that graduate papers (in English, of course) show citations to Chompsky second only to Shakespeare. He's one of the great intellects of the 20th century. Here's an interview, re Iraq and US military policy that ought to be up your alley... http://www.stopwar.ca/articles/imperialambition.html
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Oct, 2003 09:39 pm
Tartarin wrote:
You pretty much nailed it, EBrown!

Meanwhile, Chomsky is getting a lot of attention from those who revile him. Maybe they'll learning something, even as they're trying not to! So all this protest from the right may serve to acquaint them with a few moral truths.


Perhaps Chomsky should spend some time exploring the moral truths of communism and Castros 40 year grip of oppression on Cuba.
0 Replies
 
 

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