THe PC Police Again Shut Down Truth Seaking

I've learned some new epithets.

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@hawkeye10,

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any whiff that they might not be as good as straights at anything that cant be talked about.

As good or not as good is a value judgment and using the words not the same instead, is not a value judgment number one and a far better way of approaching the matter of gay/straight dissimilarity in my opinion.

Second, do you remember the days of black pride, black power, black is beautiful?

When you had been look down on for a few hundred years the normal human reaction is to go too far the other way in expressing pride in your group.

We are only a generation removed from locking people up for the crime of being gay and acting gay.

A generation removed from having driven Alan Turing one of the greatest mathematicians that the human race had ever produced to suicide because he was gay! To add to the insult this man were one of the most responsible for saving the very government that driven him to an early death.

On this very threads we had a bigot that express concerns about finding himself taking showers with gay men in the military!

A little overdoing it on the other side is hardly a high crime in my opinion.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

you are totally outside my point and my concern.....you are pushing your conclusions on this one small matter, where as I am defending the need and right to hold an honest debate or discussion on this subject as well as all others.

Direct question: What is left to debate?

- It can be observed that homosexuals can physically perform their duties.
- It can be observed that open homosexuals do not hinder mission objectives in units.
- Removing homosexuals from active duty is very expensive and a loss of valuable resources.
- We need more able bodied soldiers to achieve our military goals.

What is left to debate? After 15 years of DADT and over 13,000 soldiers removed, we know it is a bad policy. The debate is over. It has been for some time. If there were any compelling reason to ban gay from serving openly, it would be demonstratable in our ally's armies.

You don't seem capable of moving past debate. That's your problem, not mine. The military brass have been on board for some time now.

Gen Petreus
Adm Mullen
Sec Gates

This policy is not in line with our objectives and we gain nothing from it.

What is it that you think is left to debate after 15 years? What is it that you think you need to know, that you don't?

T
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

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Direct question: What is left to debate?

You sir do not have the right to decide when it is ok to talk about something. You can join the discussion or stay out of it, but you are in charge of you only, not of me or anyone else.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Direct question: What is left to debate?

You sir do not have the right to decide when it is ok to talk about something. You can join the discussion or stay out of it, but you are in charge of you only, not of me or anyone else.

Prove there is something to talk about. Answer the question. What is left to debate?

T
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

if two people or more people talking about something then by definition there is something to talk about.....we dont need to explain ourselves to you. Who the **** do you think you are?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

if two people or more people talking about something then by definition there is something to talk about.....we dont need to explain ourselves to you. Who the **** do you think you are?

It's an easy question hawkeye. What is there left to debate?

T
K
O

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@Diest TKO,

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Prove there is something to talk about. Answer the question. What is left to debate?

Hawkeye10 the man had a point what is left to debate?

A comment blaming the poor preformed of the Netherlands peacekeeping force on it gay members seem a very weak weed indeed to base any questioning of the value of gay men and women in our military given the known preformed of such members in most of the world modern arms forces.

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@BillRM,

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A comment blaming the poor preformed of the Netherlands peacekeeping force on it gay members seem a very weak weed indeed to base any questioning of the value of gay men and women in our military given the known preformed of such members in most of the world modern arms forces.

this thread was never intended to be about gays in the military, it was about our apparent unwillingness to pursue truth if it might possibly contradict our cultural cherished beliefs (myths).

we are no better than the old time Christians, our ancestors, who we tend to slander with impunity.

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@joefromchicago,

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I imagine they actually talked to members of the IDF, gay and straight, and asked them questions about their experiences in the service.

I talked to many serving homosexuals and women. I watched this through 24 years.

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Which, I'll hasten to add, is a good deal more research on the subject than you've ever conducted.

Your assumptions are wrong. A typically stupid statement from ignorance. You came to this conclusion based on my disagreeing with you and your presumption of being 100% correct in your preconceived ideas.

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I said : Because I have never said that women and homosexuals are incapable of filing, or maintaining technical equipment. They break down unit cohesion. The best units do not fight for politics. They are men fighting for each other.

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You said : And how did you measure "unit cohesion" among troops with gay and straight soldiers fighting in the same unit?

I take it by your answer that you have admitted they did not measure combat effectiveness. Thats all you had to say, as hard as it is to admit being wrong.

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Why are you talking about women in combat positions? This is a thread about gays serving in the military. Those are two different issues.

This shows your lack of ability to understand the real issue. The real issue is sex affecting combat effectiveness by breaking down unit cohesion. It is the same issue. So perhaps if I rephrase the question : why wont homosexuals serve in their own units ?

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@Diest TKO,

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History does not show us starting from "gays are just like us." Instead, they have been treated as mental patients with sociopathic disorders, and obscured to a level of social leprosy. So, after decades and centuries of them being treated as inequals, we have learned this is wrong.

Your definition of history goes back tens and even hundreds of years ? What a limited definition of history you have....I suppose it only includes the USA ? They were never treated as inequals in any unit I have served in...how about all the units you have served in ? Done any gay bashing yourself and are trying to make amends ?

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If your concern is with society being able to decide, then they most certainly have, and we are lagging behind other nations in this regard.

I missed the public vote, the referendum on that...when did that occurr ? In your local bar whilst you learnt everything about soldiering from talking ? Your desire to "catch up" with other nations may be based on your own feelings of isolation and inferiority and have nothing to do with what is best for your country.

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The wholesale banning of gays in the military is playing politics with the military, not the reverse. It's not some liberal line item.

Wouldnt you just love it if this were true....then you would be a real hero without being shot at...a noble warrior for a just cause on his white steed....you must get a boner just thinking about it. It is dead wrong but I dont expect you to admit that homosexuals have always served in the military. Gay pride, straight pride or any other kind of pride except pride in being a soldier has no place in a combat unit. Ask your friends and become an expert.

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@Diest TKO,

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Gay soldiers don't out themselves to get out of the army. The usual discharge is because they are outed by others.

Fully realizing that you dont care about facts, I present some anyways so that others might be fully informed that you are talking out of your ass

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An estimated 13,000 people have been discharged under the law. Although most of the dismissals have been the result of gay service members outing themselves, advocates for repeal of the law say it has been used to drum out capable soldiers who never made their sexuality an issue.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/04/ap_mchugh_gay_discharges_040110/

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@BillRM,

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As good or not as good is a value judgment and using the words not the same instead, is not a value judgment number one and a far better way of approaching the matter of gay/straight dissimilarity in my opinion.

What the hell does that mean ?

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We are only a generation removed from locking people up for the crime of being gay and acting gay.

Oh what dribble. If you think that was actively enforced then you have to admit there were far fewer homosexuals in the past then there is now.

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A generation removed from having driven Alan Turing one of the greatest mathematicians that the human race had ever produced to suicide because he was gay!

News Flash ! You can not make someone suicide ! Your knowledge of psychology is just as pathetic as the rest of your knowledge. Do you think it is possible that the mental illness that made him homosexual could have made him suicide ?

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On this very threads we had a bigot that express concerns about finding himself taking showers with gay men in the military!

No doubt you can quote this ?

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@Diest TKO,

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- It can be observed that open homosexuals do not hinder mission objectives in units.

From your office maybe the view is different, but that is not the case in my experience.

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- We need more able bodied soldiers to achieve our military goals.

Is HIV included ? If we accept homosexuality then we have to discharge those that are medically unfit. What of the instance where a young frightened soldier experiments with his homosexuality and contracts HIV from another soldier...they would be entitled to a medical discharge and pension when their health worsened...But here is a novel idea, maybe you should pay soldiers what they are worth instead of fattening office layabouts like you.

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The debate is over. It has been for some time.

Thus spake Zarathrushra..

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What is it that you think is left to debate after 15 years? What is it that you think you need to know, that you don't?

How about the experience of those 15 years where things were less than desirable ? No ? Cant happen because you a hunamist on a mission from God ?

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@hawkeye10,

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it was about our apparent unwillingness to pursue truth if it might possibly contradict our cultural cherished beliefs (myths).

we are no better than the old time Christians, our ancestors, who we tend to slander with impunity.

If that was your purpose in my opinion you could had pick one hell of a better example then you did.

There are some claims that are so silly on their face that most sane people do not give them a hearing as there is only so must time in the average life span.

We never land on the moon or the buildings was not taken down by the aircrafts hitting them on 911 but by high explosives and in fact no aircraft hit the Pentagon.

Or perhaps even a far better example is that Jews in the German army of 1911 was the cause of that army defeat as they knife the good non-Jews in the back. That claim seem very similar to the one you had posted for a number of reasons and all you would need to do is replace Jews with gays

Now why should any sane person give the nonsense statement that gay members was the reason for the sad failure of the Netherlands peace keepers to do their job to heart as a serous possibility?

It is a known fact that there are many elements lacking in the Netherlands forces that had nothing to do with gays or not gays being part of them that would more then cover the fact that they did not preformed.

Using Occam razor and some commonsense the chance of that claim of gays being at fault or part of the fault is near zero and the the motivation for the attack on gay members of that force being driven by covering the ass of their own leadership and expressing being a bigot is near to 100 percent. The same reason for some Germans blame the Jews in 1911.

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@BillRM,

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Now why should any sane person give the nonsense statement that gay members was the reason for the sad failure of the Netherlands peace keepers to do their job to heart as a serous possibility?

Because a sane person would say that we dont know the truth until we have asked the question and looked at the evidence to see what the answer is. The dutch themselves say that they never looked into the question of what effect the integration of gays into the force had to do with the failure of the force. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that if the command focus was diverted from the combat mission because of the social engineering mission that they had been given that the combat mission might suffer. A reasonable person would move to the top of the priority list looking into the question of what the cost of integration of gays was, instead they ignored it, because they did not want to know the truth.

But then the Dutch also say based upon their study that the force did not fail at all, so why any Sane person would take what they say seriously in the face of this obvious farce of a study I have no idea.

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@Ionus,

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News Flash ! You can not make someone suicide ! Your knowledge of psychology is just as pathetic as the rest of your knowledge. Do you think it is possible that the mental illness that made him homosexual could have made him suicide ?

Oh you are a funny funny man I would love to give you the two choices the British government gave to him. and after his great aid in helping them win WW2 beside.

Less see go to jail for a few years and very likely enjoy being rape day in and day out or have chemicals injected into your body for the rest of your life that no only would kill your sex drive but have you growing breasts along with other wonderful side effect.

Yes I am smiling thinking of you being given those two choices.

It would be far fairer to do that to a bigot like you then to a man without whom we all might be speaking German now and at the very least he was clearly worth many many divisions of nice straight troops on the battlefield.

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@hawkeye10,

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Because a sane person would say that we dont know the truth until we have asked the question and looked at the evidence to see what the answer is. The dutch themselves say that they

Sorry the Dutch are not the only people with open gays serving in their military and I had not hear of any great failures for any reason by the UK forces for example.

Having Jews in your military will result in you being defeated does not need any research to see if it true or not, having blacks in your military will result in your defeat does not call for any great research to see if it had some truth in it and now that we had have a history of gays fighting in first class arm forces for from one to two decades now it is past time that we do not need a detail truth finding concerning the sad Netherlands forces.

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@BillRM,

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Sorry the Dutch are not the only people with open gays serving in their military and I had not hear of any great failures for any reason by the UK forces for example.

LISTEN UP OLD MAN, THIS THREAD WAS NEVER ABOUT GAYS IN THE MILITARY! It was about the unwillingness to face truth, as evidenced by the Dutch unwillingness to face truth, even going so far as to pressure Americans for talking about what the Dutch did wrong.

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@hawkeye10,

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It was about the unwillingness to face truth, as evidenced by the Dutch unwillingness to face truth, even going so far as to pressure Americans for talking about what the Dutch did wrong.

If you was just calling for an investigation of the Netherlands peace keeping forces with no special credit given to the silly and bigot comment concerning gays you did not do a great job of making that clear. The PC police comment in the title also did not help.

This is on the same level as the Jews was the reason for the German defeat in 1911. An investigation now of the reasons for the German army defeat in WW1 would not spend any time on the Jews being part of the German army either.

Our group bigot Ionus seem not to had understood your meaning either by the way.

Hmm, I can only wonder if Ionus is a bigot when it come to Jews or blacks and think we should keep them out of the military also.

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THe PC Police Again Shut Down Truth Seaking

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