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THe PC Police Again Shut Down Truth Seaking

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:48 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Ionus is not frightening. In a worst-case scenario:
exactly WHAT is there to fear from Ionus?? Will u explain that ??

According to your reasoning (?),
if Ionus is AWARE of his ignorance,
then he is NOT frightening; is that accurate ?


You've failed to understand the nuance here for 'frightening', Dave. Wandel didn't say that Ionus is in that state where he frightens people. He is saying that the ignorance is frightening, the possible/potential effects of such ignorance is frightening.

Could someone please let him know, gently?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:54 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
He is saying that the ignorance is frightening, the possible/potential effects of such ignorance is frightening.
This alleged ignorance is as of yet undocumented.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 12:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

His argument is that allowing gays to serve openly will hurt the effort that is the primary mission.

Ionus has never supported this "argument" with anything more than biased personal anecdotes and generalized fears about having some guy look at him while he's taking a shower.

hawkeye10 wrote:
I believe in the people, so when 60% of the force says that they don' think this policy is a good Idea I assume that they know what they are talking about, and that they believe that letting gays serve openly will hurt the effort, just as Ionus says.

No doubt a poll taken in the late 1940s would have revealed a similar percentage of the military opposed to racial integration. Yet integration didn't hurt "unit cohesion" or military effort in the Korean War.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 01:07 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
In the most recent poll announced by the Military Times newspapers, in answer to the question “Do you think openly homosexual people should be allowed to serve in the military?” 30% of the active duty military subscriber respondents said Yes, but 59% said No, 10% having No Opinion. The same percentage, 59% in opposition, was reported by the Military Times survey in 2006 (Army Times, Jan. 8, 2007).
http://www.cmrlink.org/HMilitary.asp?docID=287


Quote:
You all hate Ionus's position, but you cant refute the arguments. Blowing him off as an idiot only works on those who are too stupid to know that his arguments are sound.


I doubt very much that there's anyone who hates Ionus's position, Hawk. What I think is being said is that it doesn't matter if 95% say No.

If you polled southerners in the mid fifties, I think that you would have gotten a pretty high No vote for desegregation.

The whole point is, civil societies don't allow the ignorant to determine policy that relates to people's rights. I think, I could be wrong, that the bad signals sent by DADT have made it possible for more bigots to jack the vote up.

You seem to think the argument is pertinent because there is a vocal group of bigots. That's ludicrous on its face. There's always going to be bigots, but there's just no reason to make it easy for them.

There's zero reason that the military can't have the same policy that occurs in civilian life. Again, it's ludicrous that people should have to serve their country as second class citizens just because of their gender or SP.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 01:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
JTT: He is saying that the ignorance is frightening, the possible/potential effects of such ignorance is frightening.


Quote:
Hawk: This alleged ignorance is as of yet undocumented


I should have made it clear that I was commenting SOLELY on the pragmatic/semantic issue and in this posting I was neutral. I was not assigning qualities to any individual.


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 01:55 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
I wrote: I think, I could be wrong, that the bad signals sent by DADT have made it possible for more bigots to jack the vote up.


Apparently, I wasn't wrong.


Quote:
The act prohibits any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing his or her sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces.

The "don't ask" part of the policy indicates that superiors should not initiate investigation of a service member's orientation in the absence of disallowed behaviors, though credible and articulable evidence of homosexual behavior may cause an investigation. Violations of this aspect through persecutions and harassment of suspected servicemen and women resulted in the policy's current formulation as don't ask, don't tell, don't harass, don't pursue.


It has to be asked. There weren't any efforts made to placate racists during the the civil rights era. They were soundly condemned. Why oh why has there been any effort to placate the ignorance that is so seemingly abundant within the officer rank of the US military.

The military officers could easily put a stop to this nonsense if they so desired. That further checks had to be put upon them with this don't ask, don't tell, don't harass, don't pursue[/b] is really telling.

Though it's not likely to happen real soon, it's time for criminal prosecutions.
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:05 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
His argument is that allowing gays to serve openly will hurt the effort that is the primary mission.

That's not an argument; that's an assertion.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 02:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
This alleged ignorance is as of yet undocumented.


Might this be of some assistance, Hawkeye?


Quote:

Don't ask, don't tell

...

In 1993, Gregory M. Herek, Ph.D., associate research psychologist at the University of California at Davis and a national authority on heterosexuals' attitudes toward lesbians and gay men, testified before the House Armed Services Committee, chaired by Representative Ron Dellums. Dr. Herek testified on behalf of the American Psychological Association and five other national professional organizations. Those organizations were the American Psychiatric Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Counseling Association, the American Nursing Association, and the Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States. Dr. Herek stated: "My written testimony to the Committee summarizes the results of an extensive review of the relevant published research from the social and behavioral sciences. That review is lengthy.

However, I can summarize its conclusions in a few words: The research data show that there is nothing about lesbians and gay men that makes them inherently unfit for military service, and there is nothing about heterosexuals that makes them inherently unable to work and live with gay people in close quarters."[11]

In his testimony, Dr. Herek reviewed existing scientific research concerning issues of unit cohesion and effectiveness and the fitness of lesbians and gay men for military service. He concluded that heterosexual personnel can overcome their prejudices and adapt to living and working in close quarters with lesbians and gay men. Furthermore, he said, lesbians and gay men are not inherently less capable of military service than are heterosexual women and men. "The assumption that heterosexuals cannot overcome their prejudices toward gay people is a mistaken one," said Dr. Herek.[12]

Dr. Herek stated in 2008: "Today, as then (1993), the real question is not whether sexual minorities can be successfully integrated into the military. The social science data answered this question in the affirmative then, and do so even more clearly now. Rather, the issue is whether the United States is willing to repudiate its current practice of antigay discrimination and address the challenges associated with a new policy."[13]


American Psychological Association states:
Empirical evidence fails to show that sexual orientation is germane to any aspect of military effectiveness including unit cohesion, morale, recruitment and retention (Belkin, 2003; Belkin & Bateman, 2003; Herek, Jobe, & Carney, 1996; MacCoun, 1996; National Defense Research Institute, 1993).
Comparative data from foreign militaries and domestic police and fire departments show that when lesbians, gay men and bisexuals are allowed to serve openly there is no evidence of disruption or loss of mission effectiveness (Belkin & McNichol, 2000"2001; Gade, Segal, & Johnson, 1996; Koegel, 1996).
When openly gay, lesbian and bisexual individuals have been allowed to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces (Cammermeyer v. Aspin, 1994; Watkins v. United States Army, 1989/1990), there has been no evidence of disruption or loss of mission effectiveness.
The U.S. military is capable of integrating members of groups historically excluded from its ranks, as demonstrated by its success in reducing both racial and gender discrimination (Binkin & Bach, 1977; Binkin, Eitelberg, Schexnider, & Smith, 1982; Kauth & Landis, 1996; Landis, Hope, & Day, 1984; Thomas & Thomas, 1996).[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_ask,_don't_tell


hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:12 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The research data show that there is nothing about lesbians and gay men that makes them inherently unfit for military service, and there is nothing about heterosexuals that makes them inherently unable to work and live with gay people in close quarters."[11]

well yes, we can do pretty much anything we put our minds to, even mistake fantasy for reality. The question is what are people willing to do, can they be convinced to do what you want them to do, can they be forced to do what you want them to do, and how much energy and damage to the primary mission of the military are we willing to invest in the project. Ionus so far as I can remember never said that it could not be done, as he explained when talking about women in the military his opinion is that this social engineering project is not worth the cost.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:15 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
That's not an argument; that's an assertion.
it is an assertion backed with logic and examples from history as well as an knowledge of interpersonal relationships in the military that only a minority of citizens as well as a2k members posess.......an argument.
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
Nope, an assertion.

He has presented no logic. He has actually fled when asked to engage in some.

Historical examples are easily defeated by other historical examples about segregated units.

His "knowledge of interpersonal relationships in the military" is countered by Mysterman's "knowledge of interpersonal relationships in the military".
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:26 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
The most frightening thing about you, Ionus, is that you seem unaware of your ignorance.
The most frightening thing about you, wandering jew, is that you seem unaware that ignorance means being unaware. Meanwhile you are prepared to assert your opinion without facts. You are not a primary source, you are just a naughty little boy.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:35 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
You do realize that the entire purpose of this site is to exchange knowledge, right? That's kinda why people come here.
You do realise that we have attempted that but you have already stated your opinion and NOW you want knowledge to base your opinion on ? Isnt that backward ?
Quote:
Because it takes a really tough guy to anonymously threaten people over the Internet, right?
And you repeatedly calling me a coward is based on extensive knowledge of my life and service life in particular. Or is it just diddims gets all huffy when people wont do what he tells them ? Stupid world not doing what you want. Raising problems when all you want is the world to change....you will feel better after a nap...you know you get cranky without your milk and cookies and a nap.
Quote:
You're in a battle of wits, not a fist fight, and it seems you've left your ammo stuffed up your butt.
No doubt you think this amswers my question as to how much time you have served in the military, boy courageous. You are ignorant of the military but you are here to change it. This is called frustrated rage misdirected at authority. Just because you are a failure doesnt mean you have to wreck everything.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:37 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
It's pathetic and sad that Ianus is unaware of his ignorance, but neither frightening nor particularly surprising.
I am impressed with your logic that I am ignorant but you beg me for knowledge. What a dickhead. Try to keep track of the argument and one day you might make sense.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 05:53 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
And yet you possess a seemingly intimate knowledge of homosexuals.
It was covered in my formal education. I also am talking about homosexuals in the military. I also have several friends who are homosexual.
Quote:
So, either gays don't want to serve in segregated units because they're repulsed by other gays or because they want to convert heterosexuals? Those are the only options? Really, this must be some kind of elaborate joke.
I wouldnt have said you were a joke. More misguided. You have refused to state the reason..why is that ?
Quote:
I'd ask him, but he's too busy having it off with your mum.
You mum is having a threesome ? Arent you jealous she has found someone else ?
Quote:
"I don't want to."
Isnt that a lovely phrase...people use it almost as much as "Why should I have to" ...you do not understand duty, honour, self sacrifice...to you the world needs cleaning up because you know what is wrong with it. Any problems encountered are not your fault. It is your idea, not your responsibility. Lousy job of avoidance by the way. You refuse to explain why homosexuals and women cant have their own units. NEWS FLASH ! Because they wont be able to indulge in a ****-fest !
Quote:
You are talking about what homosexuals want and don't want.
You are telling me they want to serve with heterosexuals. Why is that ?
Quote:
Surely those are subjects that go beyond the confines of the military.
Not in the context of the military.
Quote:
You've set yourself up as an expert on homosexuality (far more so than your presumed expertise on the military, of which I have, so far, seen no evidence whatsoever), yet you claim you've had no experience as a homosexual.
So you are an expert based on your homosexual experiences but not your military experiences ?
Quote:
And the next time you offer expert advice on this forum, on any subject, will be the first time.
In your opinion. Another example of bigotry coming first and facts coming last.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:01 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Another example of bigotry coming first and facts coming last.


a bit like how the government decided first to cave into gay rights political pressure and let gays serve openly, and is now going out to talk to the troops to find out what the problems are so that they can make the policy change work. It is ass backwards, they should have first checked to see if a change was a good idea, and then decided to change policy is such a change was warranted.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:01 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
You are being an idiot.
No, you are being an idiot.
Quote:
I served in the military for over 20 years.
I served for 24 years.
Quote:
I served with men that were gay, and they didnt deny it or hide it.
So did I.
Quote:
There was never any problems with them being gay, nor did they ever attempt to "convert" anyone.
Clearly you are one ugly son-of -a-bitch.
Quote:
They did their jobs, they were valuable members of our unit,
That is also my experience of them serving in logistics units but certainly not of women. But it is not my experience of homosexuals serving in combat units.
Quote:
You should really think about what you are saying and listen to people that have "been there, done that", instead of talking out your hat.
You should really think about what you are saying and listen to people that have "been there, done that", instead of talking out your hat.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:04 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Just because 59% might have opposed it, doesnt mean that gays are going to create tension .
Would you listen to what you are saying ? Just because 59% might have opposed it, doesnt mean that gays are going to create tension....what the hell do you think is going to happen if not tension ?
Quote:
and try to "convert" anyone
I have contributed first hand knowledge of exactly that. If you are too stupid to accept facts because you werent there, then we can assume man didnt walk on the moon as you are the ultimate authority.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:07 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
What arguments?
The ones you have been arguing against ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 8 Apr, 2010 06:10 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You've failed to understand the nuance here for 'frightening', Dave. Wandel didn't say that Ionus is in that state where he frightens people. He is saying that the ignorance is frightening, the possible/potential effects of such ignorance is frightening.
What is frightening is that people like you want to change the world and ignore practical problems. After all, enacting your policies is someone esles problems, the labourers...you are here to think up grand designs.
0 Replies
 
 

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