Do you think the Pope should resign?

@BillRM,

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The connection is our friend claims that we need to put up with the short comings of the church as faith is needed for a civil society and any attack on the church such as a call to removed a Pope is therefore unwise.

You are using words in a way that I don't recognise as valid.

The Church is an institution. A thing. It should not be confused with the human beings who are in post at any particular time. They are subject to the usual problems associated with human beings. One doesn't question the insitution of the presidency because of what a president does or his staff. It is the same with monarchy.

If the Pope was to be removed another Pope would be installed.

What is, or is not, unwise cannot be determined by casual observers. And I am not persuaded that the attacks on this Pope are anything other than a not very well disguised attack on the Church.

To what extent do you think the Church's presence in Africa is useful to us politically. If it withdrew, as some think it should, what would replace it? Has it been useful to us that its presence in Eastern Europe has to some extent been restored?

To what extent do you think the bulk of this thread has given sustenance to those in Eastern Europe who wish to prevent that restoration? And they are still fairly powerful.

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From the several brief conversations I've had over the past few days with several of my believing friends (I have quite a few) they are of two opinions:

1) that no matter what the Pope does in the next few days, many thousands will leave the Church out of final frustration with the whole cloistered situation. To them, it's more of the same story we have been hearing for the past fifteen years or so. Ignored victims of abuse finally reluctantly recognized (and some compensated) but accompanied by the revelations of complicity by higher officials (bishops, Archbishops and Cardinals) in the transfer of pedophile priests. And now the present Pontiff is implicated. To many that is old news, but to some it's the final straw.
2) That the best thing for this Pope to do this Holy Season would be to prostrate himself before the congregation of the world and publicly admit his own personal shortcomings in this matter. NOT another message concerning the Church's failures (as with the recent messages to the Irish) but his own, with the encouragement to others in the hierarchy to do the same.

One friend said "He can wish for this cup to pass, but it won't."
It will be humility which the members of the Church and the world will be looking for. Without it, my friends are unanimous in saying, the future of the Church will be dim for a hundred years.

The Church has done this to itself, it's present Prelate must lead the way back to the Cross.

Joe(three of my friends are parish priests)Nation

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@Joe Nation,

I hope that all your friends leave the Church Joe.

The last thing the Church needs is members who talk and think in that manner. It's as if they will be members if things are done as they say. Fairweather friends.

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Joe wrote:

It will be humility which the members of the Church and the world will be looking for.

It certainly is.

and wrote:

Without it, my friends are unanimous in saying, the future of the Church will be dim for a hundred years.

See, Joe, I'd venture this is an extremely US centered opinion and I'd hope it was so.
But, as a worldly traveler, I'd say other parts of the world are very far from sharing this opinion. As so, the catholic church will continue for centuries..

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@spendius,

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It is not my job to deal with such people. If it was I would get the men in white coats to lead them away somewhere. In straightjackets if necessary.

And yet you support and greatly promote an illogical world view that allow these sick people to have power in society.

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@spendius,

Quote:

The Church is an institution. A thing. It should not be confused with the human beings who are in post at any particular time. They are subject to the usual problems associated with human beings. One doesn't question the insitution of the presidency because of what a president does or his staff. It is the same with monarchy.

There are institutions that by their very nature promote harm to the society, such as the mob families for example.

The Catholic church all through it sad history had cause harm to the society as a whole and far more blood been spill under it directions then the old mobs families ever dream of spilling.

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@Francis,

perhaps during holy week the pope should wash the feet of sexual abuse survivors

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@Francis,

Quote:

But, as a worldly traveler, I'd say other parts of the world are very far from sharing this opinion. As so, the catholic church will continue for centuries..

There is no doubt about the the church continuing, but am I wrong to think that it's influence has dimmed in my lifetime in Spain, in Ireland, in Italy, in most parts of South America and elsewhere? Is the Church really as respected in Poland as it once was?

In the US, speaking personally, I was so proud to be a part of the Civil Rights Movement and the Voting Rights Movement AS a Catholic. Our churchmen and women saw both of those issues as moral imperatives and were quite clear in helping to bring about change. Catholics were a large part of the support for the rights of migrant workers to be treated fairly. We backed all the boycotts of California grapes and Florida oranges and we worked hard in my home state to reform the really awful conditions which had been imposed on the workers there. And there was the opposition to the Viet Nam War and our government's lack of honesty with it's people spearheaded in part by Catholic Priests. Man, they were Christ in action.

A lot of that remains in the Church and with it's priests, but they have driven so many away by being part of a really radical pro-choice movement that we can't any longer work with them even on issues (like immigration reform) where the Church ought to be the foremost strength in support of the powerless.

Yea, I know some, like Spendius, good riddance to us if we can't toe all the lines, but I can't help but think that that attitude defines unchristian.

Joe(Jesus wept, he didn't shrug.)Nation

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@mags314772,

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perhaps during holy week the pope should wash the feet of sexual abuse survivors

LOL I could only hope he does not then get confuse and begin to wash some others body parts by error.

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@Joe Nation,

Im predicting that only thord world countries will stay devout Catholics. I see a splintering and Balkanization of the church in the US .

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@mags314772,

Excellent idea, unless the Pope is a foot fetishist himself...

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Joe wrote:

but am I wrong to think that it's influence has dimmed in my lifetime in Spain, in Ireland, in Italy, in most parts of South America and elsewhere? Is the Church really as respected in Poland as it once was?

No, you are not wrong but its decreased attendance of churches is counterbalanced by an unprecedented activism and influence through other media. It's also more preponderant in emerging countries.

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@BillRM,

Quote:

Quote:
It is not my job to deal with such people. If it was I would get the men in white coats to lead them away somewhere. In straightjackets if necessary.

And yet you support and greatly promote an illogical world view that allow these sick people to have power in society.

My answer there Bill was in response to the people who you claimed wanted to put homosexuals to death.

Why do you distort what I've said like that?

How can I be said to be promoting the power of such people when I said they should be carted off to mental institutions. There's nobody in the UK ever comes out with that ridiculous viewpoint so it is reasonable to think it is something to do with the American educational system and nothing to do with the Church.

You would do me a favour if you stopped responding to my posts. You can neither understand English nor write it.

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@Joe Nation,

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There is no doubt about the the church continuing, but am I wrong to think that it's influence has dimmed in my lifetime in Spain, in Ireland, in Italy, in most parts of South America and elsewhere? Is the Church really as respected in Poland as it once was?

The influence of the Church has nothing to do with the matter. That's an argument to justify the Nazi party because it had a lot of influence.

There are sociological reasons for declines in Church attendance. Media temptations for one. And a big one. Increased mobility of labour. Competition for leisure expenditure. Generation gaps. Not being like Mom and Pop just for the sake of it. The Church's disciplines being overwhelmed by opportunities.

None of that alters the Church's value. And I dealt with the "going down the path" idea not being anywhere near the same as shutting the never again to be opened door on it. And with the vacuum it would leave behind. And with its usefulness for our foreign policy.

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spearheaded in part by Catholic Priests. Man, they were Christ in action.

And you allow Media hysteria about one rouge priest cancel that out. Some priests work thanklessly in leper colonies.

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A lot of that remains in the Church and with it's priests, but they have driven so many away by being part of a really radical pro-choice movement that we can't any longer work with them even on issues (like immigration reform) where the Church ought to be the foremost strength in support of the powerless.

What does "radical pro-choice" mean? I thought priests were radically pro-life as I am. But I only argue the case. I don't take action otherwise. Can you drop your support for the powerless because of that.

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Yea, I know some, like Spendius, good riddance to us if we can't toe all the lines, but I can't help but think that that attitude defines unchristian.

Yes--for sure. The matter is very complex. I don't claim to understand it all.
But you're either in or you're not. If you're in you toe the line. Otherwise you get thousands of different tailor-made sects and they are easily picked off. Like small labour unions are.

Are you a lapsed Catholic Joe? It is my mission to win you back.

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@High Seas,

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As per latest in NY Times, letters were sent in 1996 from the US to the Vatican, to an office run by the pope (then a cardinal) and were answered by his second-in-command. There's no suggestion the current pope even saw them - let alone that he ordered a cover-up:

My goodness. Is there no scintilla of a suggestion that the then cardinal (who was in overall charge of church discipline, errant priests and all that, and was known to be very thorough and very strict), was perhaps aware of such a letter on such a subject from such a country, and was consulted on the form of his subordinate's reply?

If not, I'm suggesting it now.

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The philosophical and theological positions in the first centuries of Christianity were that it was mankind's last chance. That it provided an inspiration to love virtue and to restrain the impetuosity of the passions which, in the circumstances of the time, were revolutionary ideas.

Neither idea could even be remotely revolutionary, or even interesting, if human nature already loved virtue and was capable, especially in the power elites, of restraining its carnalities. And human nature's propensity to vice and unrestraint did not disappear when Christianity arose. Its adherents themselves were subject to those things and to blame the ideas for the failures of the human beings within the institution is as silly as blaming democracy for the failures of the politicians.

Without the institution the ideas have no traction and the instiution necessarily requires flawed human beings who are naturally subject to the passions. To give those ideas force an institution is necessary and that means hunan beings. That the persons involved frequently disgraced the religion they promoted did not retard the general drift over the centuries towards more acceptance of the ideas that we should love virtue and accept restraints on our passions. The outrage over the case in Milwaukie actually proves this drift. Such things were common practice at the beginning. Out in the open. As was infanticide.

Attacks on the institution because of its flaws, which are many, resolve into an attack on the ideas. Which will inevitably, if successful, result in a return to barbarism and the resultant economic failure. And the Roman Catholic Church is the institution with the most traction. By miles.

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@McTag,

You know perfectly well I'm baptized in Calvin's own cathedral, so I've no family interest in defending the Catholic church - however I object to seeing anyone condemned on a basis so flimsy it brings to mind the judge in a Mark Twain story who remarked, from the bench, "I wouldn't hang a dog on that evidence". Fact is, I've no clue on Vatican correspondence, but this crew does, and they deny the allegations vehemently:

Quote:

The Vatican rejected as “speculation” any version of events other than the one it originally put forward to explain what it called the pope’s “nonresponsibility” in the matter.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/world/europe/27pope.html
The plaintiffs in the Wisconsin case aren't suggesting personal responsibility of the then cardinal anyway - neither are investigators in Bavaria, on a separate case. Unless someone can provide irrefutable proof that the pope, personally, ordered a cover up, I still say he shouldn't even think of resigning.

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@High Seas,

It's stretching credulity a little that 200 boys were involved and nobody outside the Church knew.

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@spendius,

would you like to rephrase that?

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@spendius,

Quote:

Attacks on the institution because of its flaws, which are many, resolve into an attack on the ideas. Which will inevitably, if successful, result in a return to barbarism and the resultant economic failure. And the Roman Catholic Church is the institution with the most traction. By miles.

On the other hand, and without unnecessarily looking for hidden agendas among the critics, most people believe that those who break the law should be answerable under the law.

Some of these crimes are pretty horrendous, and big damages are being paid in America.
People want to know how high the attempted cover-up and damage limitation went. From what I've read, Cardinal Ratzinger was at the centre of the church's administration of this for two decades.

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Do you think the Pope should resign?

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