Do you think the Pope should resign?

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Foofie wrote:

The question may not be whether the Pope should resign, but whether Catholics that are critical of the Pope should find themselves a new spiritual leader? Catholicism is not the only flavor of Christianity.

Precisely what I posited.

Not to hide my offensiveness, the aforementioned was offered in context of my secular Jewish thought that the U.S., in my opinion, can survive as a superpower longer if the vast majority of the U.S. is comprised of Protestants. I believe Protestants tend to put the U.S. in the right sequence of importance in world affairs. I am not sure if concern for all of humanity correlates with the U.S. remaining a superpower?

Whoa...here we part ways Mr Flaky.

Do not get me wrong, Catholics are very much patriotic Americans, and needed for this country to remain a functioning nation. It is just that, in my opinion, if a majority of Catholics decided tomorrow to become Protestant (I do not include Jews, since they are such a small percentage of the population) then I would feel that the history/reputation of Protestant America (America prior to 1850, or so) would make any adversary think twice before an adversarial nation decided to lock horns with the U.S.

In other words, I believe it was Protestant America that formulated the U.S. "manifest destiny" and the need to get entangled in the wars that we got entangled. Having an ocean between us and Europe/Asia, we could have been isolationist. But, I do think it was something in the Protestant "psyche" that seems to have a focus on maintaining the U.S. dominance militarily and subsequently economically. In effect, I do believe, American Protestantism marches to the beat of a different drummer, so to speak, than Catholicism. (I cannot say "American Catholicism," since it is a universal faith with a very efficient world-wide hierarchy, in my opinion.)

No, I am not "flaky." Just willing to be analytical, even if it is not politically correct, and even if it is a view that few may want to admit they too have.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Borodino, I remember that.

No, if and when I ever stop posting so much or at all, it will be from ill health, financial despond re computer maintaining and connection, or a sudden grasp of how much time I waste. I understand that last already, but carry on despite the evidence. If I manage to mature in my old age, I will get more done but still keep posting.

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@JTT,

I read Finn and Foofie when I see them and occasionally agree with their points. Let's say I vaguely remember that that can happen. I don't read h2oman and okie, usually don't follow the threads with all the histrionics going on. My aggravation threshold is a short of perfect. I often agree with you, JTT, but thumb you down when I see you attack adhominemally, abdominally. On the other hand, I thumb you up when I think you've expressed your opinion well. This is not a dump, my own behavior has been in question.

I guess I'm odd, or maybe not. I only thumb down (or try to only thumb down) on behavior, and not on opinion or even inelegance of expression of opinion. I do thumb up much more, usually for wit, cleverness, and, yes, sometimes because someone said what I think right then better than I might. I sometimes thumb up well expressed stuff I disagree with, but I could do better at that.

Enough, what's new on the Papal front?

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@BillRM,

Interesting, that had never occurred to me. Have to think about it. It wasn't that long before that the papal states, that is, areas governed by the papacy, covered a good part of the geography of italy, a lot of it the most downtrodden.

Time for me to recommend a little read book by the head of the yugoslavian red cross, Spy in the Vatican, by Branko Bokun. I admit I own a signed copy from a very used bookstore, but it seems of no monetary value, so I'm not pushing it to make a few bucks on amazon. I'm pushing is as part of a complex puzzle. The guy is biased, but it added to my background information, and I think I believe the steps he took.

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@ossobuco,

i have given up reading some posters and am totally ignoring another.

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I take back what I said about Benedict's possible resignation after reading that his personal preacher compared the 'attacks' on the Vatican in re: the sex scandals to anti-Semitism. If that isn't putting one's self on a pedestal, nothing is.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Borodino, I remember that.

No, if and when I ever stop posting so much or at all, it will be from ill health, financial despond re computer maintaining and connection, or a sudden grasp of how much time I waste. I understand that last already, but carry on despite the evidence. If I manage to mature in my old age, I will get more done but still keep posting.

And I hope you do. Would hate to see you stop.

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

grasp of how much time I waste. I understand that last already, but carry on despite the evidence. If I manage to mature in my old age, I will get more done but still keep posting.

You seem to underestimate by a mile the positive effects of being here has on your Brain health. This has been well documented, staying mentally active is critical in maintaining quality of life. Interaction with others can not be replicated in a book/ on tv/ in the garden.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Thanks, Finn.

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@BillRM,

What are you gibbering about?

What does it matter how the Vatican obtained its status as a sovereign state?

Are you suggesting that because of this scandal the current Italian government will for one nanosecond consider withdrawing its recognition of the Vatican's statehood and absorb it?

Even the countries wherein the most egregious conduct took place would not condone that.

Look, you are the one who suggested that the Vatican's status as a sovereign state could and should be used as leverage against the Pope. Is it really up to me to explain how such a ridiculous notion might be realized?

There is no chance that it will happen and not only because it should not.

I freely admit I have no knowledge of nor have ever heard of the Lateran Treaty, but then I'm not the one making the absurd suggestion that the world or any one nation will or should attack the Vatican's sovereignty because of this scandal.

Being able to regurgitate historical facts is about as impressive as the ability of an idiot savant to instantly tell you what day of the week any given date was if there is no ability to put those facts in context, and intelligently relate them to something other than the facts themselves.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

My my first I see little reason that only one major faith should had this special protection that only date back to 1929.

Second the power of the church in Italy along with it standing had weaken a great deal over the last few decades.

If more details come to light pointing out that the current Pope was involved in shielding and protecting child rapists that standing is not going to increased so having this special standing removed is hardly all that unlikely.

Or do you think that the Italians people care more for the men who control the church then the welfare of their children?

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Well, foofie, although American presidents were famously Protestant until 1960, as were most of the politicos in this country, to credit Protestantism for Manifest Destiny is absurd.

Think of Pope Julius II, the Warrior Pope, famously played by Sexy Rexy Harrison in The Agony and the Ecstasy, opposite Charlton Heston as Michelangelo and some blonde actress who had the immortal line, "Michelangelo Buonarroti, you smell!" Julius would fight for the right to manifest any destiny he pleased.

Or consider that William the Conqueror was a Catholic when he led his forces against the English but, then, Catholicism . . . with the exception of a handful of heresies . . . was the only show in town.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Thanks, Finn.

You're more than welcome.

(Don't listen to that blackguard JTT)

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@ossobuco,

Quote:

but thumb you down when I see you attack adhominemally, abdominally.

I see you as too intelligent to be using the juvenile thumb up/down, Osso.

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@JTT,

I use it, but not very often. Mostly I don't see adhoms as useful in argument, pretty much a weak spot, and think they erode what could be interesting discourse between people with differing opinions. I'll thumb those down depending on my irritation level, as I think they pull threads into yelling sorts of posts. On the other hand, I have mixed feelings on all of it.

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If the Pope doesn't resign, the US should ask for the immediate surrender of Cardinal Bernard Francis Law (He resigned as archbishop of Boston on December 13, 2002, in response to the Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal after Church documents were revealed which suggested he had covered up sexual abuse committed by priests in his archdiocese. He then fled to Rome to avoid prosecution. ) and if that demand is not acceded to, recall the current Ambassador to Vatican City.

The US does not ally itself with those who ignore attacks on innocent children.

Joe(or at least it shouldn't)Nation

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@Joe Nation,

Quote:

The US does not ally itself with those who ignore attacks on innocent children.

Joe(or at least it shouldn't)Nation

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@plainoldme,

plainoldme wrote:

Well, foofie, although American presidents were famously Protestant until 1960, as were most of the politicos in this country, to credit Protestantism for Manifest Destiny is absurd.

Think of Pope Julius II, the Warrior Pope, famously played by Sexy Rexy Harrison in The Agony and the Ecstasy, opposite Charlton Heston as Michelangelo and some blonde actress who had the immortal line, "Michelangelo Buonarroti, you smell!" Julius would fight for the right to manifest any destiny he pleased.

Or consider that William the Conqueror was a Catholic when he led his forces against the English but, then, Catholicism . . . with the exception of a handful of heresies . . . was the only show in town.

Your points are anachronistic I believe, since Catholicism today enjoys being a world-wide faith, with concern about the entire world's flock. Not exactly the makings for the U.S. superpower perspective, in my opinion.

I believe it was the Protestantism of pre-1850 America that put the native Americans in an adversarial position; remember Catholic Spaniards mixed with the native Americans to give us a new class of Latin Americans. Protestants did not do that. My point being that Protestantism seems to have had a zero-sum attitude towards this country's expansion from the outset.

And, I believe that saying that "American presidents were famously Protestant until 1960" is a red-herring, since there has not been another Catholic President in the last half a century, and while the current Vice-President is Catholic, it might not reflect a true transcendence of America's voting habits, since it is possible there are some Protestant Southern white voters that still vote Democratic, and to have a Protestant white Vice-President may have been chancing the alienation of those Democratic Protestant Southern white voters? Like it may be of little consequence to the Southern (white) pride to see a Catholic reporting to our current President? I say that since it has been fifty years without a Catholic in the White House, so I tend to wonder if there is a reason that suddenly we find a Catholic Vice-President in the White House after a fifty year hiatus? The country is around 25% Catholic, if not more, I thought. So, one would not think there would have been a 50 year hiatus.

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@Joe Nation,

Presumably you are supportive, then, of cutting all ties with the UN if it does not bring to justice all of the pedophile peace keepers stationed in Eastern Europe?

And with China for encouraging the murder of female infants?

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn I question if you would care if the Pope was found raping an alter boy himself on live TV.

Who was the Pope who was said to had die from a heart attack during sex with an alter/page boy by the way?

I love the internet it was Pope Paul II (1467-71) allegedly died while being sodomized by a page boy.

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Do you think the Pope should resign?

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