31
   

Do you think the Pope should resign?

 
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 03:34 pm
Without having read the whole thread, my answer to the original question is "no". No, the pope should not resign. Richard Dawkins is right on this one: the pope is just being a faithful representative of his institution, championing doctrine over reality, and self preservation over the victims' interst. Therefore he should stay.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 05:00 pm
I think this a question for Roman Catholics.

Why should anyone else care?

I mean a non-Catholic can of course form an opinion on the topic, but if Catholics don't want him to resign, I don't see how my opinion or that of any other non-Catholic has any real relevance.

I certainly can't see why the Pope should care, and calls for his resignation from non-Catholics couldn't be more irrelevant.

I don't profess to be an expert on the arcane workings of the papacy or the Roman Catholic church, but I don't think that even demands for resignation; made by Catholics would have much of an impact.

He wasn't elected to the post by members of the Church, and I seriously doubt any Pope has ever thought that they served by the will of anyone but God.

I suppose it's possible for a Pope to resign and one might do so if they thought God wanted them too, but its a pretty good gig and they are only human beings after all.

It seems to me that a Catholic that cannot abide this Pope continuing in the position can either renounce the religion or start a new one (Protestants), but non-Catholics calling for him to resign is on par with NY Giant fans calling for Al Davis to sell the Oakland Raiders.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 05:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I'm an old irish catholic, now not, they'd say apostate, though still irish in my way. Most of my family is still irish catholic. I renounced J. Ratzinger 46 years ago, in an early opportunity situation. As you can tell, I feel free to post. I don't mind others be posting, as the papacy affects the world. Besides, it's interesting.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 05:10 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Yea, they say that:
" I seriously doubt any Pope has ever thought that they served by the will of anyone but God."

For many years the papacy was familial/territorial; that's gotten more complicated, but not much more.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 05:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Why should anyone else care?
I mean a non-Catholic can of course form an opinion on the topic, but if Catholics don't want him to resign, I don't see how my opinion or that of any other non-Catholic has any real relevance.


Everyone once more had a horse in this race, as this is an institution that had shielded and protected child rapists.

Maybe you do not care about children unless they share the same faith as your but most of us do not feel that way.

When a Mormon offshoot church were abusing children in a somewhat similar manner, I do not remember anyone stating that it is only the business of the Mormons and why should non-Mormons care.

For one thing the Catholic Church position in the world of being an internationally recognize nation should be review and perhaps taken away from them.

That way the Pope and others leaders of the Church cannot misused such a standing and the rest of the world can hold him accountable for his actions or lack of same.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 05:30 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I seriously doubt any Pope has ever thought that they served by the will of anyone but God."


Well I have no problem in a Pope serving god however if it come out that he had allow children to be rape by priests under his control then his place on earth to serve god should be in a jail cell.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 05:48 pm
@BillRM,
I didn't say that, Finn did.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 06:00 pm
The question may not be whether the Pope should resign, but whether Catholics that are critical of the Pope should find themselves a new spiritual leader? Catholicism is not the only flavor of Christianity.

Not to hide my offensiveness, the aforementioned was offered in context of my secular Jewish thought that the U.S., in my opinion, can survive as a superpower longer if the vast majority of the U.S. is comprised of Protestants. I believe Protestants tend to put the U.S. in the right sequence of importance in world affairs. I am not sure if concern for all of humanity correlates with the U.S. remaining a superpower?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 06:13 pm
@ossobuco,
I'm not saying you cannot or should not have an opinion, just that if you are not a practicing Catholic, your opinion (as mine) on this subject is somewhat irrelvant. It will not in any way influence the Pope's decision, nor should it.

Even less relevant are non-Catholic demands that the Pope resign, but of course you've not made such a demand.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 06:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I figure things will lumber on without me.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:02 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Why should anyone else care?
I mean a non-Catholic can of course form an opinion on the topic, but if Catholics don't want him to resign, I don't see how my opinion or that of any other non-Catholic has any real relevance.


Everyone once more had a horse in this race, as this is an institution that had shielded and protected child rapists.

Then your opinion should (logically and effectually) focus on what legal actions can and should be taken against the institution, not whether or not the Pope should resign. Do you really, for one minute, think that if the Pope resigns child molestation by Catholic priests will come to an abrupt and final end? Yours is a childish reaction to a very serious problem. Punishing the Pope may make you, somehow, feel good but it will do nothing to protect Catholic children. No one, other than the utterly irrational, is suggesting that the current Pope molested children or encouraged their molestation, and it is a totaly naieve belief that the resignation of this Pope will result in the election of a new one that will somehow solve this problem with a single pass of his papal hand.

Maybe you do not care about children unless they share the same faith as your but most of us do not feel that way.

That's a truly ridiculous charge, and not deserving of a response.

When a Mormon offshoot church were abusing children in a somewhat similar manner, I do not remember anyone stating that it is only the business of the Mormons and why should non-Mormons care.

Pardon me, but you are an idiot who has willfully narrowed the focus of his mind to satisfy a sanctimonious self appraisal.

Once again, the very serious issue of Catholic priests molesting children will not and cannot be solved by the resignation of the Pope. It's hard to believe I have to explain this to you but the irrelevance of a non-Catholic's opinion on whether or not the Pope should resign does not in any way suggest that the criminal behavior of Catholic priests (regardless or whether or not the victims are solely Catholic) is a matter of concern to Catholics alone.

It is you who has made what you believe to be an indisputable connection between child molestations by Catholic priests and the continued service of the current Pope. Your welcome to such a narrow minded take on things but don't expect me to share it or to give much of a damn if it leads you to charge me with not caring about the victims.



For one thing the Catholic Church position in the world of being an internationally recognize nation should be review and perhaps taken away from them.

Really?

By whom?

Are you suggesting the UN might pass some sort of resolution that withdraws international recognition of the Vatican because of this issue?

There is evidence that UN Peacekeeping forces have been embroiled in sexual abuse scandals every bit as disgusting and disturbing as that of Catholic priests. Should the UN then pass a resolution that withdraws its recognition of itself?

And if international recognition of the Vatican as a sovereign state is compromised, so what? Do you suppose Italy will invade and annex it? Do you think that the Vatican's economy will dry up because some UN member states refuse to trade with it?

The UN has been reliably hapless in dealing with truly bad actors on the international stage like North Korea, Sudan, Iraq (of old), Iran, Burma, The Congo, Somalia, Cuba, Uzbekistan etc etc, but you might be right that it will find a unified will to punish the center of a Western religion. Doesn't quite make it justice though.


That way the Pope and others leaders of the Church cannot misused such a standing and the rest of the world can hold him accountable for his actions or lack of same.

How have the Pope and other leaders of the Church (BTW, I'm sure Catholics appreciate your recognition of the Roman Catholic Church as THE CHURCH) misused their "standing?"

Have they apponted child-molesting priests to ambassadorships?

Are they selling Alter-Boy kiddie porn in the UN gift shop or passing it across international borders via diplomatic pouches?



Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:04 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I didn't say that, Finn did.


Correct, but I think BillRM knows that.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:05 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
; )
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:06 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

The question may not be whether the Pope should resign, but whether Catholics that are critical of the Pope should find themselves a new spiritual leader? Catholicism is not the only flavor of Christianity.

Precisely what I posited.

Not to hide my offensiveness, the aforementioned was offered in context of my secular Jewish thought that the U.S., in my opinion, can survive as a superpower longer if the vast majority of the U.S. is comprised of Protestants. I believe Protestants tend to put the U.S. in the right sequence of importance in world affairs. I am not sure if concern for all of humanity correlates with the U.S. remaining a superpower?

Whoa...here we part ways Mr Flaky.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:07 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I figure things will lumber on without me.


Indeed they will so when will you realize that you need to utterly withdraw from posting on A2K? Smile
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Foofie foofied: Not to hide my offensiveness, the aforementioned was offered in context of my secular Jewish thought that the U.S., in my opinion, can survive as a superpower longer if the vast majority of the U.S. is comprised of Protestants. I believe Protestants tend to put the U.S. in the right sequence of importance in world affairs. I am not sure if concern for all of humanity correlates with the U.S. remaining a superpower?


Quote:
Finn replied: Whoa...here we part ways Mr Flaky.


While you might be different in your approach, you hardly differ in your desire for the same end, Finn. It's readily apparent from your steady and unwavering defense of mass murderers that you care nothing for any part of humanity outside your borders.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I've realized it but not processed it..
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:34 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I've realized it but not processed it..



You've quite a sharp mind.

So by 6/1/10 we can expect you to disappear?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
You've quite a sharp mind.


Osso does have a sharp mind, unlike yours, Finn. Are you suggesting that the sharp minds depart and leave the place to the likes of you, h2oman, okie, foofie, ... .

That'd be a real laugh fest, wouldn't it?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 08:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
By whom?

Are you suggesting the UN might pass some sort of resolution that withdraws international recognition of the Vatican because of this issue?


You know almost no history at all do you not even history only dating back 90 years or so?

Guess what Italian government in 1929 granted the Vatican nation statehood. Hint it was the same gentleman that made the trains run on time and happen to be Hitler comrade in arms.

Side note, could that been one of the factors that cause the church to turn a blind eye to the murder of 6 millions Jews and a few millions others or the reason for the high level aid that some Axis War criminals received from the Vatican after the war ended?

In any case all that would be needed would be for the host nation Italy to renounce the Lateran Treaty.

No UN intervention needed.



 

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