She still didn't know how to communicate without the use of her eyes and ears. Unless I'm totally misinterpreting what princess is saying, though, we're not talking about language ability in general - just the ability to communicate.
sozobe, you're right. May we continue to use her as a symbol of what we're talking about?
rufio -- when she did learn to communicate, she used WORDS. LANGUAGE.
and again, how do you communicate without language? By "language" here, we appear to be talking about more than spoken language, as ASL and the hand-spelling used with deaf and blind people.
Rufio, I dunno, I just hear belligerence from you. . . if you're confused, you can ask questions, but the approach you're taking in this thread and in others puts a lot of us on the defensive, and it's frustrating. . . I don't think you're hearing us.
What Wy and a lot of people have been saying is that, in many ways, language is THE means with which to communicate. Without language, without growing up in a linguistic and communicative world, you have no way to interact with people, speak, hear, write, draw, anything. You're missing that basic building block which is the foundation of all forms of communication.
So a deaf child CAN learn to communicate if, from day one, the parents are interacting and communicating with the child in helpful, constructive ways. A child learns to speak by hearing speech, so a deaf child learns to "talk" by seeing and making signs. If no one knows the child is deaf, they'll spend time assuming the child can hear, using speech and other tools that keep the child locked away and unable to comprehend.
By the time the deafness is discovered, the child may have progressed past the point where they can jump on the bandwagon with everyone else, and their brain may have moved past that point where complete development is at all possible.
Ergo, a child whose communicative abilities and therefore ability to master any other subjects are not honed from birth may face great obstacles throughout his/her life.
And, soz, she got scarlet fever sometime around her second birthday, but if I remember correctly, any speech or comprehension of language was somehow lost. . . she did, after all, have to learn to speak all over again, so at least that knowledge wasn't maintained. You'd think that if she had been blinded and made deaf, she might have been able to still speak, and just with shock find she couldn't hear herself.
Perhaps the fever damaged that part of her brain? I suppose it's possible. . .
Bless you, princessash, for being so clear and calm. I'm afraid I was starting to shout... I think I'm saying something, and rufio says something that makes me think I haven't communicated...
Indeed. . . this thread itself is an example of what happens when people communicate ineffectively :-)
It's interesting, though.
(And I have to say there must be some effective communication too, as you just did a dandy summing-up of language acquisition in deaf and hearing kids, P'ash.)
You can't communicate without language, but you can have language and still be unable to communicate. HK had language that required eyes and ears, but she lost both of those and was unable to communicate.
That said, there are non-linguistic ways of communication - unless you want to describe body language as being on par with English or ASL, or even animal's calls or body movements - all these are ways of communicating, but they are not necessarily as complex as a fully developed human language. Unless you want to make langauge synonymous with communication, in which case we have a tautology so it doesn't matter anyway.
I think that in order to use body language and such non-verbal communication, you have to be able to observe the proper form and function of the lingo, which a child whose parents weren't aware of the child's lack of comprehension might not be able to do. . .
Without being able to communicate with a child, I doubt that child could easily pick up such body language. . . again, they'd be one step behind and might miss the critical learning stages.
That's what I meant by saying that she knew language and communication using her eyes and ears, but couldn't use it . But she had a general idea of language that allowed her to learn the new eye-less ear-less language that her teacher taught to her. She had language, but not communication.
Wy wrote:I have a cousin whose (advanced) degrees are in early childhood cognition. She says that, until you have language, you don't have memory.
That's like saying that when monkeys wake up they won't recognise their relatives? It's been established that chimps are very territorial - they will attack (and kill) chimps from other groups. Obviously, they remember who's part of their camp and who's not.
I think that memory uses language, but memory also uses
all sounds, smells, touch, and taste. Plus, if any animal touches fire, it remembers if it's lucky.
Iain
dduck, I'm not sure. I was enraptured by my own month-old baby at the time and I'm not sure on the details (haven't seen her since; she lives across the country). Perhaps she meant memories, as of a birthday party, rather than memory, as of one's mother.
George Carlin talked about dogs living in the moment -- when you scratch their heads they think it's gonna be that way forever, because it's that way now. Then when you pull your hand away they look hurt...
Anyhow, I went back to the beginning and found the original question:
Quote:Do the languages we speak affect the way our minds work?
It's been a long discussion and perhaps we can edge closer to the original -- I'll come out and say Yes, our language affects the way our mind works.
I agree.
Now, see, that's not as much fun as having it out over helen keller. . . :-)
Not nearly. I'd hate to have been the one to bring this thread to a screeching halt; has anyone got a contrary opinion?
Drats, now I've got to go dig up something I was reading earlier. Something about vision and language acquisition. Where was that?
No, I don't have a contrary opinion!!
Hmmmmmm, I know that when I speak different languages my voice sounds different. At a couple of jobs, I've been the person called on when there were German or French-speaking clients. Usually by the end of each call, there would be co-workers gathered around the desk, ready to comment on the sound of my voice. So it wasn't just the words that were different, but the tone and rhythm of my speaking.
Sort of the way you can tell, when you can hear people talking but not make out the words, if they're speaking English or another language. The rhythm is different.
Same thing happens to me. . . interestingly enough, it happens when I type, too. . . can't type in German the same way I do in english. . . I think the neural pathways are just not as well linked to my fingers :-)
