5
   

Eva Peron... ???

 
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:26 am
@gungasnake,
Therapy for whom? Your use of it makes it look like therapy for you? Why do you feel the left has become illegitimate and what do you mean by legitimate? What power do you think you have to change things? Are you active anywhere but here?
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 08:37 am
@plainoldme,
Quote:
Why do you feel the left has become illegitimate and what do you mean by legitimate?


When you get all the way down to the bottom of it, the basic problem with the dem party is that it doesn't really have any sort of a real constituency. In fact dems don't even claim to even know how to do anything other than represent "victims" and it's this fascination with victims and victimology which is the core of their problems. That really means that they never adapted to the end of the depression or learned any new life skills coming out of the depression and WW-II.




gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 08:10 pm
Somewhere between Peron's Argentina and Yugoslavia might be the closest any populist or leftist country has ever come to actually working; basically, anybody interested in future social or political systems is going to have to study these two one way or another, whether they be liberal or conservative or whatever.

What went wrong? One version:

http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/state_and_revolution/Juan_Peron.htm

Quote:

Basically PerĂ³n failed because his reforms were not radical enough. For example, although he raised rural wages and forced landlords to sell cheap to the AIPE, he refused to take the next step when they balked. He did not nationalize the land. Thus, the amount of land under cultivation dropped from nearly 22 million hectares in 1934-38 to just over 17 million in 1955. What you had was a producer's strike, not that much different from the kind Allende was confronted by.


Of course, the example of Russia and what happened when a state simply took over farming had to have been fresh on Juan Peron's mind and the idea of 15M people starving to death in a place the size of Argentina likely impressed him as trouble he didn't need. The question is, what the hell should he have tried to do?

And then, the same source:

Quote:
...The one thing that they can do to keep imperialism at bay is impermissible: to arm the workers and expropriate the expropriators. Despite their inadequacies, the workers movement has an obligation to defend such governments under attack from imperialism....


Now, granted Peron's problems were domestic and not related to Yankee imperialism and keeping in mind that in 1890 Argentina was an economic powerhouse roughly on a par with the US and not even a rational target for Yankee imperialism...

Nonetheless the boy appears to have hit the nail nearly over the head here. The operative idea is the US second amendment. The first thing which would have occurred to me to do in Peron's place would have been to go over to that big Imbel plant in Brazil, and order about 300M dollars worth of FAL rifles and 308 ammo and spread all of that stuff out amongst the "descamisados", and aside from any effect that might have had amongst the nation's rich landowners, it might also have served as a permanent bulwark against the recurrent military coups and banana-republic regimes.

I believe that the second amendment is an idea whose time either has come or should come all over the world. It might have done something for Juan Peron; it definitely would do something for the 70,000 people who get killed by snakes every year in India. That also would not be possible in a country whose people were armed.




0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 10:26 pm

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r53/icebear46/Eva_Peron_husband.jpg

One thing I've noticed in this life is that good people seem to have good body language.....



0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 10:27 pm
And then again (by way of contrast)...
http://anjosedemonios.weblog.com.pt/arquivo/esquire%20-%20clinton.jpg
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:53 pm
This seems to be the basic story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkbim9VbAWY

Again the reality of this one is hard to get at for a number of reasons. The abuses which the common people of ARgentina suffered in 1945 were more like what peasants experienced in feudal societies than like anything you could find in the US over the last 100 years; the peronist reforms would make no sense in the US today or anytime recently, but made enormous sense under the circumstances.

This story is a gigantic tragedy; the only person who ever lived who could have plausibly done justice to it would have been William Shakespeare.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:22 pm
@gungasnake,
I would call that a rather personal interpretation of history. Did you read the piece in the NY Review of Books (25 MArch 2010) written by someone who, as a libertarian, had sympathy with the Tea Totalitarians and went to their convention? I would call the Tea Totalitarians a group looking for a constituency.

What ever happened to moderate Republicans? Now, Obama has been called a moderate Republican.

Are you aware of who Leo Strauss was? I understand that the shelf life of his followers, the Neo-Cons, has expired.

Throwing out a few examples to illustrate that the Repubs lack a constituency. After all, there are Repubs who realize that palin is a few sandwiches short . . .
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 09:00 am
@plainoldme,
Jesus said that a man cannot serve two masters and it's the dems who have the major problems with that and that arises from this thing I note of victims and victimology with the two latest dem victim groups being muslims and polar bears.

The most major conflict in that scheme, although there are others, is the natural conflict between their (demokkkrats) NEA paymasters and their inner city constituents who are the chiefest victims of the govt. school monopoly. Dems fight tooth and nail against every effort, and every program meant to provide decent schooling for poor inner city children, blacks in particular, and sooner or later blacks are going to awaken to how badly they're being fucked by this relationship with the rogue party.

Then again there's something I've never even mentioned here involving the question of how anybody or anything could be a "victim" of anything in the US generally, i.e. Mencken's statement about the relative ease of making it in America versus anywhere else:

Quote:
The American Republic, as nations go, has led a safe and easy life, with no serious enemies to menace it, either within or without, and no grim struggle with want. Getting a living here has always been easier than anywhere else in Christendom; getting a secure foothold has been possible to whole classes of men who would have remained submerged in Europe....


In other words, anybody who can't make it in this country not only wouldn't make it anywhere else, he likely wouldn't even be tolerated anywhere else and you have to ask yourself, given that, about the basic legitimacy of a political party which specializes in representing "victims".
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 11:25 pm
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r53/icebear46/perons7.jpg

Nobody ever had more fun with a Kodak camera than these two...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 08:36 am
I know..... Why would national health care make sense for Argentina in 1945 but not for us now??

Same basic reason a tourniquet makes sense on a battle field but not in a hospital operating room. In much of the world in 1945 most people would have had little or no access to medical care; in societies still structured after the Spanish colonial model, you'd figure the situation to be really bad. Books describing Argentina around 1945 indicate that something like 500 families owned most of the country and everybody else was basically SOL.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 08:42 pm
@panzade,
Dumb question...

What if anything, good, bad, ugly, indifferent or whatever, did your parents or grandparents ever tell you about the Perons, or their impressions of them?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:43 pm
You gotta read this.....

Quote:


"...She was making enough to afford to move into a better hotel although she still couldn't afford an apartment and she even considered having plastic surgery to enlarge her breasts (in crude Argentine macho talk a girl had to have melones and not limones if she wanted to keep a man). But when the day came for the operation, she failed to appear. She had apparently decided to leave nature alone, although the decision may well have been determined by an unexpected setback in her fortunes at about that time. Her brother Juan phoned her to say that he had been caught stealing money at the bank where he worked. It was not a large amount, but if he did not replace it immediately, he would go to jail. Eva did not hesitate for a moment. She appeared to have a genuine love for her big brother despite his playboy ways. She sold everything she had, gave him every peso she possessed, and moved back into a cheap boarding house, this time in Boca, the old Italian district down in the port where the buildings lean crazily over twisting narrow alleys leading down to the quayside.

Eva had the steel will of a survivor. Living in the Boca could not have been a pleasant experience for a single girl on her own. In those days in Argentina's big cities, an unchaperoned girl was considered fair game. On the narrow dockside streets, she had to contend with the chirripos, the neighborhood dandies in their tight black suits, gummed back hair, and highly polished shoes who lolled their days away in street corner bars, passing leering comments at any girl who passed by. But they quickly learned to respect the backlash of the peasant girl from Los Toldos. "She had a tongue to skin a donkey", one of them remembered admiringly years later....


In other words, she deliberately put herself into harms way to save a family member from the logical consequences of his own misconduct.

Anybody have any sort of a picture of ..... I'd normally ask if anybody had any sort of a picture of SlicKKK KKKlintler ever doing anything like that but the real question is, do you have a picture of ANY of our politicians doing that??

panzade
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:58 pm
@gungasnake,
uhmmm...you've got the time line screwed up gunga. At this point she hadn't met Juan P and was only a scared campesina with big dreams.
Your efforts to compare her with the Clintons is awkward, and a little bit absurd.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:14 pm
@panzade,
I said, ANY of our present politicians.

Other than that, I have no real animosity towards SlicKKK, SlicKKK is a psychopath and cannot help that. The animosity I have is against the rogue party which kept his sorry ass in the whitehouse for 7 years after they figured out what they were dealing with.

There are two or three dozen allegations of rapes and sexual assaults in SlicKKK's background and all are believable, particularly the Juanita Broaddrick story. It appears now as if Monica Lewinski was a ringer of sorts; her resume at the time was that of a high class call girl and positively not that of a political intern or anybody with any thoughts about becoming a political intern. She appears to have been brought in by the Ca. dems who Edith Efron described as running the whitehouse in order to take heat off the real interns i.e. to prevent any of them being assaulted and/or raped.

Having put SlicKKK in the whitehouse and having figured out what they'd done, the dem party was totally obligated to pack his sorry ass off to St. E's or some such place and hand the whitehouse over to Algor. The pubbies can at least be counted on to take out their own trash when need arises, dems clearly cannot.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 11:29 pm
I mean, what a trip this one turned out to be. About a month ago cable channels were showing "Evita" which I'd never watched previously and that "Don't cry for me America" thing was being passed around and turning up on conservative forum sites and I had a vague idea of who the Perons were but that was all; further, from everything I'd ever seen or heard of Madonna I'd viewed her as a leftist freak of some sort... Nonetheless fifteen or twenty minutes of actually watching "Evita" convinced me that freak or no, this performance was heart and soul for some reason and not just making movies for money or any such i.e. something about the story of the Perons had really gotten to the leftist freak, like what the hell could that be??

Thus the Peron's came up on the snake's radar screen enough to justify study. From everything I read which is believable, and despite any misgivings, I like these two, a lot. They inherited a country which was economically advanced but politically primitive and came within four or five ideas and three doses of hpv vaccine of turning it into a model for the entire world.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 08:06 pm
@gungasnake,
I asked about the left and not about the Democratic party.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 08:10 pm
@gungasnake,
Your view is unique to you. Look at your last sentence about victims. Now, the Tea Baggers consider themselves victims. The Repubs are courting them and (obviously) writing their scripts.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 08:38 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
I asked about the left and not about the Democratic party.


I believe the left/right dialectic has outlived any usefulness it night have had. What the hell do you mean by right-wing any more? The term used to mean stodgy people and country clubs and the old-money wing of the pubbie party but there's clearly zero future in that any more.

Likewise "left-wing" used to mean progressivism and a concern for workers and common people but again that was long ago and far away. Todays democrats and most of those calling themselves leftists are basically misanthropes and idolaters (Gaia worshippers) who want to return human populations to medieval levels for the greater glory of Gaia.

The meaningful dialectic at this point as I see it is populism versus this hideous nexus of Gaia worship, envirowhackism, CFRism, population-bombism, no-growth/no=-energyism, blame-Americaism, magical apology-tourism, victimology, junk science, and all this other **** which the dem party has come to represent.

That's one of the things which makes this question of what Juan Peron was about interesting i.e. there are people calling themselves both left and right wing peronistas to this day and the basic idea seems to be that the core idea is helping people (as opposed to wanting to save the planet or any sort of aristocracy FROM people) and the question of whether you seek to do that via left or right wing methods is less important.

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 08:39 pm
@plainoldme,
Where do you get this "tea totalitarian" thing? You make that up on your own or did the DNC provide you with that?
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:25 pm
@gungasnake,
What else do you call racists who insist on imposing their will on the population?

0 Replies
 
 

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