So is the Apisa.
I was just testing your mettle before.
You got spunk, Monk.
I like that!
truth
All I know that is that I take comfort in knowing that I do not HAVE to die a long slow agonizing death. There are ways to avoid that, IF one has the courage and the capacity to use them. My father was a member of the Hemlock Society, but he never had to use any of their suicide methods--He died peacefully in his sleep at 93--of nothing.
Reminds me of a prayer on the wall in my brother's office:
Dear Lord,
Please let me die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather -- and not screaming and terrified like the guys who were in the car he was driving.
I joined this forum today because this problem is a real one in my life. My belief was that your life is your own, the only thing you own in fact, and therefore is yours to take away. And rationally I still believe that. However, my husband has been suicidal for 2 years, is in hospital being protected from suicide. He is bitter about this, says they can do nothing for his depression, except keep him alive. Because his 3 sons believe he can get better in the end, and because of their need for a father alive, I find that although my conscience as a thinker says he should be able to take his life, my emotional/human conscience says he shouldn't. I'd like your views, anyone who can help really, as at some point the hospital will send him home - do I have the right to allow him to die, if he chooses to?
My advice, and I hope you take it, is not to take any other advice from the Internet.
The problem you are dealing with requires input from a PROFESSIONAL.
Frank- I disagree. I worked for many years in the mental health system. If I learned nothing else, I learned one thing. People who are hell bent on killing themselves WILL succeed, no matter what you do to intervene.
In the case of a first try, of course it is wise for the family to attempt to help the person. There is an old saying that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. If a person is depressed, and attempts suicide, often an early intervention WILL make the difference between life and death for that person.
I believe that there comes a time where a person has the right to say he has "had it".
Don't worry, I'm not going to take advice from the Internet solely. I just need some more views to help me sort out my moral position. Actually, the attempts my husband made on his life have been half-hearted. Taking 50 paracetamol just before the nurses came round with medication; walking into the sea with all his clothes on. He says he is a coward. So perhaps he isn't at great risk if he comes out of hospital. Thank you for your input, Moderator. I have found the mental health specialists are loth to take responsibility for any viewpoint - all part of our liberal relativistic times I suppose. They tend to ask him 'Will you promise to talk to someone if you're tempted to kill yourself?' Naturally he says 'yes' in order to get his right to temporary leave.
As well as a practical and emotional dilemma, it is a philosophical question, and it is a philosophical input I ask from this forum.
Is there a reason he doesn't want to be around anymore? Is it his job? Is it no job? Is it not enough money to support his family? Does he think that if he dies his family will be better off with out him?(Money?)
It is difficult to give advice on this kind of subject, considering most people do not have the professional back ground to do so. It is a matter of not wanting to say the wrong thing. No one wants to be the person who gives advice and then it is taken and the advice was the wrong type.
I was wondering what it is that he is escaping from? He is running from something.
truth
My guess, Clary, is that if he really wants to kill himself, there is nothing you can do about it, just be prepared to do your best so that you will not suffer too much guilt if he does suicide. I've had this experience myself with a family member who eventually suceeded, and I'm still living with undeserved feelings of guilt. I'm so glad I am not actually guilty.
We don't have enough information in your case, of course. But if his problem is chemical, the only solution I can imagine is to set his brain chemistry right. In other words, the only reason he will not kill himself is because he will no longer WANT to.
Clary, by your post, you obviously agree with the basic premise that one should have the right to die at the time of one's choosing.
Your real life question has the added complexity of children who have a dependence on their father. Isn't it just like life to get in the way of a good philosophical argument?
How old are your children? If they are of an age where they can begin to understand the emotional pain your husband is in, perhaps the three of you could seek therapy as a way of preparing yourselves for the probability of your husband's death.
truth
I second that, Diane.
Thank you all for your replies and thoughts. I don't want to go into the history of Simon's case here, but he feels he's completely ruined his life (nobody else's - this isn't a guilt trip). Chemicals and therapy have been used in great abundance but nothing has changed his mindset. Our sons are in their early 20s now, and I think that the younger two agree with the general consensus in this forum that each individual has to be responsible for him/herself and that no guilt can be assigned. My eldest son still believes that he is 'of unsound mind' and since in law this is a defence against taking responsibility for murder, then the same is true of suicide, I suppose. That son is a passionate believer in the interconnectedness of people, that we all have mutual responsibilites and no one person can decide entirely for himself. Again, it comes down to what you believe fundamentally about the rights and responsibilities of man.
No one wants their father to die.
truth
If I were to take any of these points VERY SERIOUSLY, Clary, they would be those made by Phoenix. I am very curious to know if your oldest son would be willing to live with his father. Good luck.
Yes, no one wants their father to die, especially as this says 'you are not worth living for'.
Actually my eldest son did take a year out of his career, came back to England from a great job in NYC to be near his father, and then travelled with us both to NZ hoping that a particular therapist would be able to help - he has done a lot so I don't fault him on that. No, the only guilt that is being (potentially) laid on me is by my own conscience. Apparently the Tinetans have no word for guilt... the Dalai Lama speaks of acknowledging you have done something regrettable, deciding to do better next time, and then putting it out of his mind. A healthy way to live. No atonement, guilt trips etc.
Clary- It sounds to me like you have done all that you can for your husband. Remember, you are a human being, and are not omnipotent. I think that you can comfort yourself with the fact that you have done the very best of which is possible. Now the ball is in your husband's court!
Phoenix, exactly on target.
