Suicide....Should it be legal?

Re: Suicide....Should it be legal?

katuu-k2 wrote:

The majority of people who commit suicide are in a self-created, lonely world.

When people commit suicide they obviously think they've got nowhere else to turn and they're always alone. I knew a girl once who's mother had committed suicide when she was very young. Years later she tracked down her mother's grave. When she found it, what did she find? A blank mound on the ground. Nobody had even cared enough about this lady to place a cross, to signify that she'd once been a living, breathing human being. That makes me think that she was right. She WAS in a lonely world, and it obviously wasn't self created. Statements like that above make me sick.

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People don't always commit suicide because they're lonely, either. Two people suicided here during finals week, probably because of stress - there was a third, who came from a 3rd-world country, and his friends said that he felt guilty about being able to live in comfort in America while his family back home was struggling to survive.

"rufio and Locke, the right to life is a legal fiction."

Of my country, dammit. It's in the constitution - it's my right. I'm damn well going to take advantage of that.

Besides that fact, I think it's a moral right too. If you don't have the right to life, what else do you got?

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Laws against suicide remind me of a law our town council passed a few years back.

The passed a law requiring all cats to walked on leaches.

Guess how many people in the township pay any attention to the law.

Guess how many people have been ticketed or even warned about not complying.

If someone wants to commit suicide, they are going to commit suicide without any regard to laws against it.

The only place this makes any big deal -- is when a person is in a terminally ill situation -- and wants to end the suffering and/or waiting for the inevitable.

If we were a civilized nation, we would have in place a system for handling that kind of thing.

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Some people who really want to committee suicide will not do so because of obligations to others or because of religion condemnation.
Belief in god has probably prevented some people from killing themselves. But whether that is good or bad is dependent on the individual circumstances.

But I would think that one does not have to be depressed or other wise in need of therapy to entertain the idea to kill their self and to follow it with intention and action.

Terry wrote:

Quote:

If you really had q right to commit suicide, no one would have the right to intervene.

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The truth is we are guaranteed nothing. I hear it all the time about how everyone is due something or other and talk about human rights, right to live, right to freedom, yadda yadda yadda. It seems that every single day SOMEONE's rights are trampled on. The truth is ... you can't please everyone.

To the question of right to life and right to die, we already operate on this as if it is a guarantee. Those who wish to commit suicide, do so. The only thing stopping them is fear (fear of the unknown, pain, emotional distress, whatever their fear may be). There are little or no social punishments for unsuccessful suicide attempts, unless there are special circumstances, since it is obviously a pointless task. What can you do, as punishment, to a someone who has already tried to kill themselves?

Assisted suicide however is the grey area. It is one thing for a person to try to commit suicide by themselves, with no obvious third party help (not taking into consideration gun manufacturers, drug companies, knife manufacturers, etc, because of the use of their products to complete the act), it is quite another thing to have a doctor or whomever actively give drugs intravenously (or whatever the method of suicide may be) when the person who wishes to die is physically/emotionally unable to do so. Here you can get into all sorts of trouble because the intention of the person wishing to die is not absolute. If it were, they would do the deed completely themselves. By having someone else 'assist' it is never 100% clear that what is happening is the undeniable wishes of the person. Say I were terminally ill and unable to move, feed myself, go to the bathroom or do anything other than lay in bed. Would I want to die? Probably. If my senses we intact and I were able to think and communicate, I might tell a close family member to slip me something in my arm so I could go in peace. Would I do it? I don't think so. If I cannot make and act on a decision such as this, I really don't think I could force that decision on someone I love or even someone I don't love (like my doctor). I think it is one of the hardest things to expect another human being to do for you and this is why it is such a grey area and not something I think that with the wave of a law can be made legal. There are so many various situations where assisted suicide could go awry. Look at what has happened to abortion. It was made legal for some very important reasons and now it is such a regular occurrence that few people bat an eyelid to it.

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we are guarenteed everything we dont let others take

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Suicide Is Painless

Through early moring fog I see
Vision's of the things to be
The pains that are with held for me
I realise and I can see

*That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please

The game of life is hard to play
Gonna to lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
So this is all I have to say

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I had a dream once there was a hostpital where you could go to be... lol... "put to sleep"

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according to Islam the one who commits sucide will go to hell for the following reasons:

(1) Death and life are the responsibilties of God, he is the one who should decide when life should end or start, humans have no right in deciding these things. so when some one commits sucide then he is violating his limits and going to the responsibilities of God.

(2) Suicide means that you dont like the life and fate God has chosen to you. When you are in big problems and dont know what to do then you are not supposed to kill yourself, God wants to examine you and your faith, and then when you are in the exam you go and say: If this is my life and what God has chosen for me then I dont want to live any more, and you go and kill your self.

this is mainly why Islam forbids suicide.

If you are unhappy in your life, then better than killing your self and go strait to hell is to become happy in your life. becoming happy happens by correctly practicing the correct religion of God.

The prophet mohammad peace be upon him said: How strange is the life of the muslim, it is all good, and this is only for the muslim: When something good happens to him he thanks God and thus he is blessed. and when something Bad happens to him he is patient which is also good for him.

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barhoooooom wrote:

according to Islam the one who commits sucide will go to hell for the following reasons:

(1) Death and life are the responsibilties of God, he is the one who should decide when life should end or start, humans have no right in deciding these things. so when some one commits sucide then he is violating his limits and going to the responsibilities of God.

And if God decides that when the person commits suicide it's their time to go?

barhoooooom wrote:

(2) Suicide means that you dont like the life and fate God has chosen to you. When you are in big problems and dont know what to do then you are not supposed to kill yourself, God wants to examine you and your faith, and then when you are in the exam you go and say: If this is my life and what God has chosen for me then I dont want to live any more, and you go and kill your self.

Again, and what if this is the path that is choosen for you? You know, the suicide might not even be about you. You could be a mere supporting character, and your death used as an instrument to educate someone else.

barhoooooom wrote:

this is mainly why Islam forbids suicide.

If you are unhappy in your life, then better than killing your self and go strait to hell is to become happy in your life. becoming happy happens by correctly practicing the correct religion of God.

The prophet mohammad peace be upon him said: How strange is the life of the muslim, it is all good, and this is only for the muslim: When something good happens to him he thanks God and thus he is blessed. and when something Bad happens to him he is patient which is also good for him.

So if you're unhappy in your life, you should follow the correct religion of God. And suppose you're homosexual? What then? Don't all western religions pretty much condemn homosexuality? So if you're unhappy with what God gave you, and he gave you something that is wrong to begin with, does it really matter if you commit suicide or not? Obviously, God doesn't think very much of you, to put you in that situation.

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hmm... it seems that you actually believe that God sets every single thing for you, even the choice of your religion.

Actually that is not so. We humans are here on earth have the free will choose what we like. But, God said: if you choose what is wrong then you wil be punished unless you repent. and if you choose the correct then you are rewarded.

When you are a christiant, it is not because God made you a christian, it is because you chose to be. However choosing to become a christian did not happen against the will of God.

You see, this life is an exam for us. God showed us the correct way and the wrong way, and told us to choose the correct one. so when you are choosing something, your choice is not previously set from God, and also at the same time not agaisnt his will.

That is why we see evil on this earth. Why does God allow evil? does he like evil. NO, the thing is that he allowed us to do waht we want so that at the day of judgment he could give us the results of this exam.

so when he commits suicide it is not God who chose this for him, it is he who did it, and yet again, it is not against the will of God.

God sometimes puts some people in a test to see if they are going to succeed or not. Some they are teseted by making them poor. if they are patient or they will not.
Others are tested by making them ritch. which is something harder than being poor. God wil see if you will use your money properly or not, and if you will remember him with your money or not, and so on.

look, sometimes when you see a murder you repent or you may learn a lesson, but this will not in any way make the act of the murderer correct, although it lead to you learning a lesson.

even when you hear abt someone committing adultery, you may become more careful and so on, but this does not make the adulterer correct.

and again, God is not the one who made the adulterer and the murderer do their acts. they are the ones who chose them, and it was not against God's will, he permitted it to happen, because this life is an examination place, and if we cant do the evil then we are not examined.

so, the same thing is with suicide, you said that one doesn't know, this suicide might teach some people a lesson, true...but it will not make the act legal or proper.

now, you said:

So if you're unhappy in your life, you should follow the correct religion of God. And suppose you're homosexual? What then? Don't all western religions pretty much condemn homosexuality? So if you're unhappy with what God gave you, and he gave you something that is wrong to begin with, does it really matter if you commit suicide or not? Obviously, God doesn't think very much of you, to put you in that situation.

ok, some people like to kill, and they want to kill you, all religions condemn killing inocent people, but he is not happy unless he kills you, so he is a fool, the mistake is his and not the religion's.
the same thing is with homosexuality, it is wrong, and some people want to do it.

actually, in general, most of the sins are beutiful and nice to the human soul, who doesn't like to have sex? who doesn't like to steal his neighbour's BMW X5 if stealing was not illegal?

Relegion came to tell us that these things, althoug are wanted by humans, are wrong, and that we shouldn't do them. WHY? this is all for our own good, and for the good of the society.

in general, when we look at the lives of the sinners, they are surely not happy or comfortable. Yes, he might be happy while doing his sin. but in general, his life is not very nice. there is a gap, he doesn't feel that this is why he is on this earth.

what I want to say is that:

homosexuals are maybe happy when doing their business, but happy in their life in general.

on the other hand, others who feel like being homosexual, but because of religion they dont do it, they might be a bit upset when their desire arouses, but their life in general is much happier than that of the one who does the sin.

so yes, following the correct religion does make you happier although it sometimes does not allow you to do the wrong things you like to do.

I think that I have talked too much, sorry for that.

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a little correction:

instead of:

homosexuals are maybe happy when doing their business, but happy in their life in general.

I meant to say:

homosexuals are maybe happy when doing their business, but (NOT)* happy in their life in general.

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barhoooooom wrote:

hmm... it seems that you actually believe that God sets every single thing for you, even the choice of your religion.

Actually, no. But isn't that the premise behind Judeaism, Christianity, and Islam? If your god is omnicent and omnipotent, then everything that happens on this earth is because your god wants it that way.

barhoooooom wrote:

Actually that is not so. We humans are here on earth have the free will choose what we like. But, God said: if you choose what is wrong then you wil be punished unless you repent. and if you choose the correct then you are rewarded.

Free will from a J/C/I standpoint is a joke. See my above comment as to why.

No, I take that back. I'm going to comment further on that.

Free will is an illusion when you don't have a choice. "Follow me, or burn in hell." Is not a choice. How is it free will when we have a sword of Damoclese over our heads constantly? How is it free will when we have a sword of retribution hanging over our heads, put there by an immature god, saying "Do it my way or pay the consequences."? How is that free will? It's not.

barhoooooom wrote:

When you are a christiant, it is not because God made you a christian, it is because you chose to be. However choosing to become a christian did not happen against the will of God.

I didn't make me christian, my parents did. I had no say in the matter. About the time I graduated high school, I realized that christianity was not for me. Since then, my beliefs have been constantly evolving as I reassess my place in this world. But the core beliefs have remained largly unchanged.

barhoooooom wrote:

You see, this life is an exam for us. God showed us the correct way and the wrong way, and told us to choose the correct one. so when you are choosing something, your choice is not previously set from God, and also at the same time not agaisnt his will.

I actually agree with you on this. Life is a test. No, life is like school. We're here to learn, and when we pass on we must assess if we learned what we were sent here to learn. And then the process starts again.

But I disagree with you on god showing us a 'correct' way and the 'wrong' way. Again, as I said in my previous post, perhaps this time around we're just supporting characters. We're here to influence or help somone get to their goal. To say that each time we must come here and do the same thing is ludicrous.

And if I should be wrong, I'll stand up to your god and say "I've lived my life the best way I know how, sticking to my morals and being the best person I could be." If that's not good enough for him/her, then I don't want to be around them.

barhoooooom wrote:

That is why we see evil on this earth. Why does God allow evil? does he like evil. NO, the thing is that he allowed us to do waht we want so that at the day of judgment he could give us the results of this exam.

Do you really think that god doesn't like evil? If your god exists, I would hope, no pray that you god was smart enough to see that without evil s/he wouldn't exist. You can't have one without the other! Can't have top without bottom, can't have front without back, can't have east without west. So not only does your god like evil s/he depends on it! S/he requires it!

barhoooooom wrote:

so when he commits suicide it is not God who chose this for him, it is he who did it, and yet again, it is not against the will of God.

Do you realize what kind of contradiction that is? Of course, most organized religion is chock full of contradictions. I'm sure to you it makes sense. . . but it's flawed logic. Your god is putting us here, giving us free will, yet everything we do is with their approval. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that faulty logic.

barhoooooom wrote:

God sometimes puts some people in a test to see if they are going to succeed or not. Some they are teseted by making them poor. if they are patient or they will not.
Others are tested by making them ritch. which is something harder than being poor. God wil see if you will use your money properly or not, and if you will remember him with your money or not, and so on.

How much of a test is it when you're told the answer before hand, told what's expected of you, and if you fail, what your punishment would be? Yet another contradiction here. If we truly had free will, there would be no punishment for us going our own way. There would be no "Do this, that, and the other, or else burn in hell." It just doesn't happen that way. But I've already answered this question, scroll up to my first and second reponse.

barhoooooom wrote:

look, sometimes when you see a murder you repent or you may learn a lesson, but this will not in any way make the act of the murderer correct, although it lead to you learning a lesson.

even when you hear abt someone committing adultery, you may become more careful and so on, but this does not make the adulterer correct.

and again, God is not the one who made the adulterer and the murderer do their acts. they are the ones who chose them, and it was not against God's will, he permitted it to happen, because this life is an examination place, and if we cant do the evil then we are not examined.

But it is against god's will. You've said that there is a correct religion to follow, that there is a right path to go down. Now, if murder and adultery are not the path to take, (obvious, since there are commandments agains them) then it is not according to god's will that this happens. Otherwise s/he wouldn't feel the need to make a rule against it.

barhoooooom wrote:

so, the same thing is with suicide, you said that one doesn't know, this suicide might teach some people a lesson, true...but it will not make the act legal or proper.

But you're missing the point. If your suicide is supposed to help someone else in some way, than it is very legal and proper. But what does that say about your god, putting one person ahead of another? Better be a good reward waiting for me, if my suicide is supposed to teach someone else a lesson. Of course, you didn't say that, that's just me putting words in your mouth. But that doesn't make the point any less valid.

barhoooooom wrote:

now, you said:

So if you're unhappy in your life, you should follow the correct religion of God. And suppose you're homosexual? What then? Don't all western religions pretty much condemn homosexuality? So if you're unhappy with what God gave you, and he gave you something that is wrong to begin with, does it really matter if you commit suicide or not? Obviously, God doesn't think very much of you, to put you in that situation.

ok, some people like to kill, and they want to kill you, all religions condemn killing inocent people, but he is not happy unless he kills you, so he is a fool, the mistake is his and not the religion's.
the same thing is with homosexuality, it is wrong, and some people want to do it.

What? How can you compare homosexuality with murder? Do you see all sins being equal, no matter what you do? Cuz that's what I'm getting from your post here.

barhoooooom wrote:

actually, in general, most of the sins are beutiful and nice to the human soul, who doesn't like to have sex? who doesn't like to steal his neighbour's BMW X5 if stealing was not illegal?

Relegion came to tell us that these things, althoug are wanted by humans, are wrong, and that we shouldn't do them. WHY? this is all for our own good, and for the good of the society.

I personally wouldn't steal my neighbors BMW, simply because it's against my moral standards to do it. It's not so much about there being a rule against it, (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) but because I have respect for my fellow travellars on our humble little rock.

barhoooooom wrote:

in general, when we look at the lives of the sinners, they are surely not happy or comfortable. Yes, he might be happy while doing his sin. but in general, his life is not very nice. there is a gap, he doesn't feel that this is why he is on this earth.
what I want to say is that:

homosexuals are maybe happy when doing their business, but happy in their life in general.

on the other hand, others who feel like being homosexual, but because of religion they dont do it, they might be a bit upset when their desire arouses, but their life in general is much happier than that of the one who does the sin.

I've known several homosexuals in my day. One that I recall was a very devout catholic. One of the nicest people I have ever met. Period. Christian/nonchristian, homo/heterosexual. There's not a nicer guy out there. Give you the shirt off of his back without ever thinking about it. When I knew him, very devout to his partner. I can't imagine him not being happy with his lifestyle.

But to deny that which we are, wouldn't that be an insult to your god? I mean, he made us this way, and now we're rejecting it. And what kind of setup is that, to be made one way, then told that being that way is wrong. Oh, right. . .a test. Nope, not buying that one. I won't say that I know of people who've come out of the closet and been much happier for it, but there are plenty of stories going around about people being much happier after outing themselves. It's hard to live in denial of what you are, and unable to fullfill that which you're supposed to do here. What kind of sadistic and cruel god does that?

barhoooooom wrote:

so yes, following the correct religion does make you happier although it sometimes does not allow you to do the wrong things you like to do.

I think that I have talked too much, sorry for that.

Now, I'm not going to say that if your 'correct' religion doesn't allow you to be happy, then you're in the wrong religion. That's pretty elementary. But isn't it a sin to not be true to thine own self? So if you reject being homosexual (which you seem to think its some kind of disease, and equate it to murder. . . .) than you're not being true to yourself. In my mind, another insult to your god. To take what has been rejected and deny it. For a test? Nah. .. .I don't buy that.

Don't apologize for talking to much. I've rather enjoyed this, myself.

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Bar - does that mean that if you are unhappy anyway, you are already doomed, whether you kill yourself or not? Does the first thing mean that if you exercise and attempt to make yourself live longer, and therefore also mess with God's plan about the time of you death, you go to hell as well?

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Turner 727,

God does not require evil. There does not have to be evil. That is an imperfect thought. The reason that people think there has to be evil is because their minds cannot grasp good with out evil. Just like their minds cannot grasp God had no beganing and he will have no end. Imperfection taints the mind.

Free will was given by God to humans to decide what ever they want to do. But as in everything there is a right and wrong way to do something. Not only that but God can read hearts. He can read whether or not your good or bad and how deep you are in it. It is gift to have free will. He could have made everyone fit into what ever he wanted and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

On the subject of suicide I think it is wrong to be so selfish to take yourself away just because. Now in the case of someone who has been on a respirator and is in a comma for the past long time then yeah if they have no way of coming out of it then their husband or wife should be able to allow them to die. What is the point in spending all that money to keep someone barely alive for the amusement of ones self? That is selfish. But if there is no other reason than because the person is unhappy then no they should not be allowed to kill themselves. I say that because there are people who look forward to seeing them, even if they don't know it, so to take their life away just because they are unhappy is selfish.

An observation from the BlueMonkey.

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You know, BlueMonkey, I was going to respond to this, when I realized that you just regurgitated everything barhoooooom said. So for my response, just look to my response to barhoooooom.

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barhoooooom wrote:

(1) Death and life are the responsibilties of God, he is the one who should decide when life should end or start, humans have no right in deciding these things. so when some one commits sucide then he is violating his limits and going to the responsibilities of God.

If God were the sole arbitrator of when life should end, saving someone's life would thwart his will. Does Islam forbid doctors from artificially prolonging life?

Turner refuted the rest of your points very nicely. The only thing I would add is to ask why you think that some people choose to act against the will of God. Did God plan for them to choose evil and give them a weak character or tempt them beyond their ability to resist? Is it fair to punish someone for failing a test that was impossible for them to pass? Is it fair to allow victims to suffer in order that God's Chosen can be tested? What chance do they get to take the exam if they are dead?

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Rufio, the Constitution does not guarantee you a right to life. It only prohibits the government from depriving you of life, liberty or property without due process of law. The Declaration of Independence asserts unalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but it is not a legal document and the founding fathers did not extend these purported rights to slaves or women.

If you have a moral right to life, would it not be just as immoral to kill yourself as for someone else to murder you?

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twyvel, agreed that people have the ability to kill themselves, either directly or with drugs or risk-taking behavior. But that does not make it legal or moral, any more than they have a right to steal or kill just because they have the freedom to do so.

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Heeven, while we cannot punish someone who is successful at suicide (other than barring them from burial in hallowed ground), those who attempt suicide and fail may be incarcerated in a mental institution.

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BlueMonkey, is it not selfish to demand that someone else continue to live in pain in order to spare yourself grief?

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Terry,

If God gave weak characters then that would defeat the purpose of free will. He does not map out people's lives. They live them out the way they chose to. They die when they die they kill when they kill. These are the choices of free will. God does not take people in death. That is such a lame reason why people die. God is love so there is no way he would just steal someone just because.

As for keeping someone from killing them self as being selfish to demand them to stay and live in pain well I say that one is the lesser. Killing one self is the wimp way out of a situation. It is a weakness of character. It is something that can be fixed. everything can be selfish if you spin it right. Why would someone want to donate millions of dollars to a hospital wing? To get their name on the wing for as long as the hospital is there. That is selfish. Spin it right anything is selfish. But when it comes to murder, even of ones self, if someone stops them from doing it is not selfish.

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Suicide....Should it be legal?

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