7
   

not infrequently = frequently?

 
 
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 12:42 am
We have not infrequently overruled two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper. = We have frequently vetoed two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper?



Context:
Practical obstacles?

Dr Campbell says that as far as his journals are concerned the charge is untrue: "Our editors, who frequently attend conferences and visit laboratories in order to keep abreast of the field and the people in it, have always used their own judgement in what we publish. We have not infrequently overruled two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper."

We are seeing the publication of a lot of papers in high profile journals with minimal scientific content or advance
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:08 am
My impression is that it means what it says. Not infrequently means more than infrequently, which could still be less than frequently.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 08:03 am
@Brandon9000,
I agree. A better word would be "occasionally."
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 08:36 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:

We have not infrequently overruled two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper. = We have frequently vetoed two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper?


It's called litotes: "a figure of speech in which a certain statement is expressed by denying its opposite."
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 08:42 am
@joefromchicago,
To me, it has the connotation that the writer is intentionally waffling a little bit... that is that she doesn't want to seem happy about it.

"We have frequently vetoed two or even three..." makes the writer sound like she could be enthusiastic about vetoing referees. Not infrequently is a bit more neutral (and I think this is the intent).
0 Replies
 
Joeblow
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 10:00 am
@oristarA,
“Not infrequently” stresses the point that the occurrence is not a rare event, but it doesn’t necessarily = “frequently,” though I can see how you might guess that, if you perceived a double negative.

IMO, he isn’t saying that it occurs often or regularly, or frequently, but that it’s definitely something that occurs more than occasionally (if you look in your thesaurus you’ll see that another word for occasionally is infrequently).

From Joe’s link on litotes:

Quote:
Litotes is a form of understatement, always deliberate and with the intention of emphasis.[2] However, the interpretation of litotes can depend on context, including cultural context. In speech, it may also depend on intonation and emphasis; for example, the phrase "not bad" can be said in such a way as to mean anything from "mediocre" to "excellent".


JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 01:23 pm
@Joeblow,
Quote:
though I can see how you might guess that, if you perceived a double negative.


That doesn't follow, Joe, because with the exception of litotes, [which are not frequently used when compared to the exceedingly common examples of negative concord found in English] double negatives, or more properly, in the sense of a better description, negative concord never means a positive.

Quote:

Lingua
Franca

October 10, 1998

Giving Up on Double Negation

...

The mistake is in seeing a mistake. This kind of usage [double negatives/negative concord] is not a mistake. It's a form of words that is characteristic of many languages, including Spanish, Italian, Polish, Russian and Cockney, but not Standard English. Linguists call it Negative Concord.

The Cambridge Grammar of English, I have decided, is not going to hush this up with a blush and a mumble and pass on as if embarrassed. It's going to great it seriously. It's going to explain, of course, that Negative Concord is not used in formal writing and should be avoided in all contexts where keeping up appearances is an issue.

But it is also going to explain how Negative Concord works, which is something like this: Everywhere you would get an 'any' word, like 'anything', 'anyone', 'anybody, 'anywhere', 'any', or the indefinite article 'a', Negative Concord languages require that you use the appropriate 'no' word instead. It doesn't matter how many there are in the sentence, this applies to all of them. So if you take

'I don't want a linguist with a grammar book giving me any lectures about a proper way to speak to anybody',

it comes out in Cockney or in a Negative Concord language, as

'I don't want no linguist with no grammar book giving me no lectures about no proper way to speak to nobody'.

That's not a sextuple negation, it's an ordinary single negation. But there are five indefinite words like 'a' and 'anybody' in there, and they all get pronounced in Cockney the same as the negative words 'no' and 'nobody'.

You have to learn this if you're going to make any claim to knowing English. Because if you believe that when the Rolling Stones play 'Satisfaction' and Mick Jagger sings 'I Can't Get No Satisfaction' he is singing about how it is impossible for him not to be satisfied, you can't even understand rock 'n' roll.

A fully competent speaker of English knows how to work out the meaning of both 'I am unable to obtain any satisfaction' and 'I Can't Get No Satisfaction', and knows that the first of those would be suitable in a business letter and the second would be appropriate in personal conversation in a pub in Spitalfields or Pentonville.

A person who cannot understand Mick Jagger's lyrics, even if they are written out on a sheet of paper (nobody can understand much of it when he's singing, of course, is not a better English speaker, but a worse one.

The way I see it, real class in being an English speaker involves understanding both the Queen saying, 'My husband and I cannot imagine anything nicer', and a Cockney speaker saying, 'Me old man and me can't fink of nuffink nicer'. Real class is being knowledgeable about the diversity of English as well as sensitive to the nuances of the different varieties. The status-obsessed grumblers who complain about other people's double negations do not have class. There is nothing classy about insensitivity to the complexity of the linguistic world around us. If you pay attention to linguistic diversity and appreciate the variety in your language, you'll find you can't get no satisfaction.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/lf981010.htm





Joeblow
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 03:41 pm
@JTT,
Hiya JTT.

Um...ok, I'll add to it:

“Not infrequently” stresses the point that the occurrence is not a rare event, but it doesn’t necessarily = “frequently,” though I can see how you might guess that, if you perceive a double negative as meaning the opposite.

Is that better?

~~~~~~~

Do you believe that “not infrequently” = “frequently?”


0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 04:27 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
Hiya JTT.

Um...ok, I'll add to it:

“Not infrequently” stresses the point that the occurrence is not a rare event, but it doesn’t necessarily = “frequently,” though I can see how you might guess that, if you perceive a double negative as meaning the opposite.

Is that better?


Howdy, Joe.

No, I don't think that it's a whole lot better, 'cause no one perceives them as such, certainly not in this case.

Quote:
Do you believe that “not infrequently” = “frequently?”


Nope, I don't think that.

I'm not even at all sure that it's an example of litotes; more thought needed there than I'm now willing to expend.

We have, not infrequently, overruled two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper.

=

We have overruled two or even three sceptical referees and published a paper. And I don't want to leave you with the impression that this is a rare occurrence.

I see it as a "sometimes" with a different semantic intent.
Joeblow
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:40 pm
@JTT,
On the contrary, I think the idea that two negatives make a positive, is not an uncommon assumption at all.

I’m truly surprised that you think “no one” perceives them as such.

But, I do now see that it was a presumption on my part, however innocuous an aside I thought I was making, and for that reason alone I’ll thank you for your comments though I believe you’re wrong about that generally, if not specifically.

Damn. What a mouthful Smile

I see we DO agree that “not infrequently” does not = “frequently.”
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 05:54 pm
@Joeblow,
Quote:
On the contrary, I think the idea that two negatives make a positive, is not an uncommon assumption at all. I’m truly surprised that you think “no one” perceives them as such.


It was an assumption when the "rule" was concocted by Bishop Robert Lowth round about 17??, and, I have to allow, that many have seized upon that errant assumption and promulgated it, Joe. All without much regard at all to reality.

Maybe better. The notion/idea/belief that grammar marms, high school teachers, language mavens have passed on to generations of students, that a sentence with double negation, eg. "He don't know nothing", means that "he knows something", is false. No native speaker glosses such an example in the fashion described by the rule.

Quote:
But, I do now see that it was a presumption on my part, however innocuous an aside I thought I was making, and for that reason alone I’ll thank you for your comments though I believe you’re wrong about that generally, if not specifically.


To continue a discussion on this topic, you're going to have to provide a clearer framework for what you're saying here because there are examples in English where double negation can indeed, resolve to a positive.

Quote:
I see we DO agree that “not infrequently” does not = “frequently.”


Indubitably. Isn't there some degree of contradiction between your conjecture/belief, above, and your stance here?
Joeblow
 
  2  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 06:26 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

It was an assumption when the "rule" was concocted by Bishop Robert Lowth round about 17??, and, I have to allow, that many have seized upon that errant assumption and promulgated it, Joe...


There, I see it. An acknowledgement of my point. And a complete about face, too.

Quote:
To continue a discussion on this topic, you're going to have to provide a clearer framework for what you're saying here because there are examples in English where double negation can indeed, resolve to a positive.


Oh, for heaven's sake. No thanks. I more than regret my aside despite your allowance. Start your own thread if it floats yer boat. I might peak in.

Quote:
Quote:
I see we DO agree that “not infrequently” does not = “frequently.”


Indubitably. Isn't there some degree of contradiction between your conjecture/belief, above, and your stance here?


No.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Feb, 2010 08:53 pm
@Joeblow,
Quote:
There, I see it. An acknowledgement of my point. And a complete about face, too.


You have to consider the assumption and whether there is any veracity involved in making that assumption. Even today, there are some who will repeat this nonsense but it doesn't, can't function in a realistic sense.

It presents the same measure of reality as saying "Boats don't float" while staring at boats floating".
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 04:42 am
@Joeblow,
Yes...it's like "not bad" does not mean "good".
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 04:48 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Quote:
Do you believe that “not infrequently” = “frequently?”


Nope, I don't think that.

I'm not even at all sure that it's an example of litotes...

You can't be serious.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:24 pm
@joefromchicago,
What are you referring to, Joe, part 1 part 2 or both?

joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 09:00 am
@JTT,
The part about you not knowing whether the term "not infrequently" was an example of litotes.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 11:26 am
@joefromchicago,
Thanks, Joe.

The only thing I'm sure about regarding that is that I'm not sure.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 11:44 am
@JTT,
What would resolve your doubt?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 11:51 am
@joefromchicago,
Explain it to me, big guy, in that throaty whisper of yours.

Aren't you supposed to be in court? Smile
 

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