Atheism

Certainly the atheist label is externally generated. I don't necessarily identify with the idea of being atheist in any strong, meaningful way--it's just how the rest of the world would see me.

However, Mr. Harris is more than a little disingenuous. I am caustically contemptuous of astrology. It it were an important issue (which it isn't), then yes, i would make it clear that i am anti-astrology. It's a poor analogy in that astrology does not assume the same importance in our lives that religion does, whether or not we personally are religious--the comparison fails because religion and astrology are not analogous in their social importance.

I see your point, but I took it to be a bigger picture idea, as in a way to start making religion less socially important again. I can't begin to argue with you on this subject, as I'm but a babe to these concepts.

From my perspective, however, the atheist label scares the hell outta those that are religious. (been there, done that!) If I can talk to them without using that label, and instead use reason, logic and facts, I can see where more doors would open towards acceptance of non-believers.

Having said that, I'm not on a mission to convert. My number one concern is that children be educated based on sound scientific facts. My second concern is that the people stop suffering and dying at the hands of those that claim a god as their guide.

Jonathan Miller, one of my favorite public intellectuals, once said he never calls himself a Jew except to put down antisemites. That's pretty much how I feel about the term "atheism". In a better world, where belief in gods had the same status as belief in fairies and vampires, I would describe myself as a naturalist, a critical rationalist, and a hedonist instead. Unlike "atheist", these three terms positively describe my metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics---the main issues religions take a stand on. Alas, that's not the world we live in, so I stand up to be counted as an atheist. But that's for one reason only: to confront faithheads.

I do se your point but from my studies of religion I find that my christian religion has very much to do with astrology. It seems that much of my religion was built from upon it.

That will be because you only know those scientific facts which are not the subject of controversy.



I would make that my first concern. Putting it second seems rather callous to me.

The astrology of today is foolish because we have knowledge which supersedes it. But much of the astrology of ancient times had no superseding knowledge. It isn't foolish to believe something when it's the best explanation you have, it's only foolish to follow an idea when it's been demonstrated (by superior evidence and understanding) to be incorrect.
Much of Christianity has a basis in Paganism which resulted from observations of astronomical events and interpretations (the best available at the time). In that sense, it's a valid foundation, even though an inaccurate one.

Sound science relies on continuing to question what one thinks one knows and testing new information as it becomes available. It drives me crazy that Discovery Channel presents so many shows using a dialog that suggests that we know the information being presented to be true when they are mere theories and guesses.

My first concern leads to the second happening, imo.

Ah, that at a glance, also appears to be a better description of where I stand.

(What??? You don't believe in fairies and vampires?? )

I understand all that. I've made the point here before, and it's worth repeating, that i almost never discuss these matters in real life. I don't discuss religion unless it is forced upon me, and then the clown who started it gets whatever he or she deserves. In the real world, religion almost never comes up for me.

zachary.

where I live, any religious discussion whatsoever would be unwise.

they mostly like me right now...

You know, people talk about the "Bible Belt," but my experience is that it don't come up so much in that region. When you got Babdists, and JWs, and Nazarenes, and all them crazy crews together in one place, one really, really doesn't bring up religion in polite conversation.

because it doesn't mean anti-theist, it means without theism.

agreed.

but if it comes up, and I'm outed, I am dramatically outnumbered. the wimmens here get fierce about it. (they don't leave pamphlets any more)

I probably didn't word that right, then.

I am also without astrology.

Well, pardon my faux paux. I guess I didn't realize that an invitation was required. I just figured that since you, who are full of yourself, jump into every religious thread with the intention to disrupt. It would be ok for me to join this thread with an earnest desire to learn and perhaps add a little of something without offending.

Apparently, you are offended. I wonder if littlek, who started this thread, is of the same mind as you. I hope not since you are attempting to stifle free speech.

Boys, boys. Remember what Moe said: "C' mere porkypine." To which Larry replied, "Ow!"

Don't mind the pup. You're invited.

I think the point littlek had was to gather resources and info so atheist could build community, not isolate ourselves away from theists.

A
R
T

Oh--you're isolated against theists goodstyle. To avoid it talking about the weather is as good as anything.

I kind of like the 'Secular Humanist' label:

Secular Humanism is a term which has come into use in the last thirty years to describe a world view with the following elements and principles:

A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

a very interesting group, hinge