Atheism

@chai2,

That's the Christian version I suppose.

The issue these theologies try to address is the origin of evil. But it is an untractable problem in any monotheist religion, because if there's only one god, then he must have created evil too, and therefore what's his ground to asks humans to avoid evil? Whereas if one postulates several gods, then the solution is simple: there's a bunch of evil deities and a bunch of good ones, just choose your side. And if you postulates zero gods (atheism) then other solutions are available, eg men and women in society co-create the concepts of good and evil as it fits their socio-political goals.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

That's the Christian version I suppose.

The issue these theologies try to address is the origin of evil. But it is an untractable problem in any monotheist religion, because if there's only one god, then he must have created evil too, and therefore what's his ground to asks humans to avoid evil? Whereas if one postulates several gods, then the solution is simple: there's a bunch of evil deities and a bunch of good ones, just choose your side. And if you postulates zero gods (atheism) then other solutions are available, eg men and women in society co-create the concepts of good and evil as it fits their socio-political goals.

Monotheism basically boils down to the realization that there's one single universe in which the diversity of all forms emerge. Prior to monotheism, the divergence of forms causes people to think things are too different to be created by the same forces, e.g. how can the oceans emerge from the same forces that produced the forests, the deserts, the mountains, the moon, sun, stars, planets, etc.?

If you understand science and the way basic physical forces govern all things of the universe, then you understand the foundation of monotheism, but it's the issue of intent/consciousness/agency that puzzles atheists. They can't reconcile the observation that they, as human people, are aware of their perceptions and experiences, that they experience intent and agency in making choices and committing actions; but other animals and parts of nature seem to be different in that regard.

Now you specifically mention the emergence of good and evil from the same fundamental source. You can presumably understand how the sun, moon, and Earth all emerge from the same elements of the same periodic table, but not how good and evil can manifest from the same fundamental creative powers.

Well, start taking examples of good and evil and tracing them back to root powers that they emerge from. E.g. why do animals kill other animals? Food? Protection? Do they always kill? What if they can just ward off an enemy/predator by bearing teeth, hissing, or otherwise causing the predator to leave them alone? What if they can eat by killing plants instead of other animals? Is there moral virtue in any of that, or is killing just killing, whether necessary or not?

Furthermore, if humans, animals, or other beings are capable of doing anything and everything they are capable without moral reflection, is there any distinction between good and evil? Why is it evil to torture others into submission? What about torture/killing for pleasure/sport/entertainment? What about enslaving people or animals for profit? We intuitively feel these things are evil and not good, but what exactly makes them so? Aren't there examples of each that would be considered good, or at least acceptable; such as when animals are raised for meat-slaughter, or horses are enslaved to pull wagons, or people are tricked into performing undesirable labor by leading them to believe they have no other option for survival?

If you can figure out some example(s) of evil that aren't intimately connected with some form of good, please post it and explain how it is so radically different that it would have a totally different source cause than the same creative spirit that enables humans to come up with everything virtuous that we do.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

That seems close to Leibnitz's "best of all possible worlds". It's logically coherent metaphysics but it can't be used to build or justify a moral code. If evil is just the necessary collerary to good, the other side of the same coin, then why bother with the whole morality question? Why not kill whom we want to kill, and eat his flesh too?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

That seems close to Leibnitz's "best of all possible worlds". It's logically coherent metaphysics but it can't be used to build or justify a moral code. If evil is just the necessary collerary to good, the other side of the same coin, then why bother with the whole morality question? Why not kill whom we want to kill, and eat his flesh too?

Because you don't want people killing you and/or your loved ones and/or eating their flesh.

You want to be spared harm and so you spare others harm. You want to have a world with less structural harm, so you try to identify structural harm and come up with ways to change it and to get other people to help because it involves them too.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

But then, you are making a distinction between good and evil, a distinction that you were disputing in your previous post as logically incompatible with monotheism and the unity of the universe and ****...

Ask yourself: why the Devil? Why did monotheists came up with the Satan figure? The answer is simple: their theology necessitated a "god of evil", but they couldn't get one, monotheists as they were, so they made up a kind of ersatz of it. Trying to stick the polytheist cube into the monotheist round hole, they conjured a creature of the unique (good) god who revolted against him and is now locked with god in some eternal battle for the human heart (or just doing god's dirty work, e.g. in the Book of Job).

Ergo, strict monotheism cannot explain the origins of evil as a distinct thing from good. You need a god of evil to do that, theologically.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

But then, you are making a distinction between good and evil, a distinction that you were disputing in your previous post as logically incompatible with monotheism and the unity of the universe and ****...

You misunderstood what I was saying. I said that both good and evil emerge from the same fundamental creative power. That doesn't mean they are the same thing.

When God says, "let there be light" and then He sees that it is good; that implies that the ability to distinguish between good and evil is part of the power that emerges from fundamental creative power.

I.e. first you have the ability to do whatever you can, and then part of that power is to be able to distinguish between good and evil in the things you can do.

Quote:

Ask yourself: why the Devil? Why did monotheists had to come up with the Satan figure? The answer is simple: their theology necessitated a "god of evil", but they couldn't get one, monotheists as they were, so they made up a kind of ersatz of it.

No, there is a logical story in which the relationship between pride and envy are personified in terms of an angel, i.e. an agent of divine power, who becomes envious of God and wants to compete with Him for worship.

That story shows you how there are two sides to divine power, i.e. the side that just wants to serve the greater good for its own sake, and the side that sees the worship that responds to goodness and desires that worship for the sake of self-pride.

People do good either way, but some do it for the sake of gaining worship of others and feeling pride in themselves; while others do it because they want to serve a greater good than themselves; maybe because they have witnessed their own desire for worship and pridefulness and seen how it obstructs them from achieving the goals that really matter to them, which is about really achieving a greater good for its own sake.

Quote:

Trying to stick the polytheist cube into the monotheist round hole, they conjured a creature of the unique (good) god who revolted against him and is now locked with god in some eternal battle for the human heart (or just doing god's dirty work, e.g. in the Book of Job).

Well, isn't that the way the human heart works? Don't we teeter between wanting to do good for its own sake and wanting to feel pride and impress others so we can win their love and other rewards?

Quote:

Ergo, monotheism cannot explain the origins of evil as a distinct thing from good. You need a god of evil to do that, theologically.

That's exactly what the Bible does by explaining Adam & Eve's separation from God in the Garden of Eden after they reject His advice and believe the serpent's deceit instead.

God is trying to help them avoid harm by warning them about the tree, and they are all on the same team at that point; but then the serpent convinces them that God is against them, and that in turn tricks them into going against God's warning, which in turn causes them to harm themselves by rejecting the part of their team that was truly interested in their best interest and powerful in supporting them.

So goodness happens when we seek to be one with God (i.e. to be in agreement), and evil happens when we get separated from God because we misinterpret Him as being an evil lord instead of a good one. That's why you read all these atheists spinning the Bible to make God seem evil, i.e. because that stimulates people to oppose themselves spiritually to God, which sets them up for falling to temptation of sin.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

You could just as easily justify that evil is what happens when we seek to be one with God, who created evil the first place... but that is not something you are able to grasp, me think.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You could just as easily justify that evil is what happens when we seek to be one with God, who created evil the first place... but that is not something you are able to grasp, me think.

That is correct. Power brings temptation to abuse power. But part of power is seeking to distinguish between good and evil uses of power and disciplining ourselves and each other use power responsibly.

1 Reply

A, the thread has become a paddock, where the great braying jackasses hold forth on topics which don't really matter to them, and about which they clearly know nothing. Of course, when you've got attention whores serving one another's obsession, there is that to be said for it.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Amen.

0 Replies

Eff 'em. I just put them on ignore.

1 Reply

@livinglava,

Quote:

Power brings temptation to abuse power.

Sure, but once again, my point is that you can't logically square that with monotheism, which pimps a central unique omnipotent boss as the very best and most glorious thing. There's a contradiction there with the human wisdom you refer to here, which says that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.

I'm not saying morality is wrong or false, nor even that monotheism is wrong or false. I'm just saying that you can't logically base morality on monotheism.

I conclude that our human moral sense has most probably nothing to see with gods, whoever and how many they are, and a lot more to do with who we are, each of us human and as a species, and with the tension between who we are and who we want to be.

If there's one and only one Big Boss up there in the sky, and if he created everything, well then he created Hitler too and the death camps. He went along with it at the least, as some part of his big plan. And you think this guy cares if you lie to your mother?

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Power brings temptation to abuse power.

Sure, but once again, my point is that you can't logically square that with monotheism, which pimps a central unique omnipotent boss as the very best and most glorious thing. There's a contradiction there with the human wisdom you refer to here, which says that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly.

I'm not saying morality is wrong or false, nor even that monotheism is wrong or false. I'm just saying that you can't logically base morality on monotheism.

The alternative you're suggesting is a form of polytheism where good and evil derive from two separate forms of creative power. That would undermine what I've been explaining that good and evil branch off from the same original source, which is just creative.

In other words, creativity can be good or evil. Distinguishing whether it is good or evil or both or good in some ways and evil in others, etc. is also a part of creativity.

Quote:

I conclude that our human moral sense has most probably nothing to see with gods, whoever and how many they are, and a lot more to do with who we are, each of us human and as a species, and with the tension between who we are and who we want to be.

gods and God are just personifications of the powers they represent. Neptune/Poseidon, for example, is just a personification of the power of the sea/water. Likewise, God (monotheist) is the personification of omnipotence, omniscience, etc. that encompasses everything, i.e. the entire universe of creation.

Quote:

If there's one and only one Big Boss up there in the sky, and if he created everything, well then he created Hitler too and the death camps. He went along with it at the least, as some part of his big plan. And you think this guy cares if you lie to your mother?

Here you're scrambling levels of power and organization and trying to make the universe seem chaotic. It's not. Hitler and death camps emerged and evolved in a certain historical context, alongside Bolshevism/Stalinism and the gulag slave labor camps. You say, "God went along with it," as if there has not been any consciousness/conscience of it as an evil thing.

Then you say God doesn't care if you lie (to your mother); but you are already implying conscience when you even give that example. So the very fact that you are aware that 'lying to your mother' is something bad that God would care about proves that He does, because otherwise how would you have the power to be aware of it as a bad thing?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

(Good to see you back, Olivier!)

1 Reply

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

Eff 'em. I just put them on ignore.

They aren't interested in anything beyond ******* up a thread that does not need them. Much as, often, the spurned husband murders his ex wife.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know