layman
 
  0  
Sun 10 May, 2015 09:23 am
@Herald,
Quote:
If you don't have a definition of God, I doubt that you will ever be able to explain what does 'no-God' is supposed to mean.


What Frank is telling you is correct, as a strict matter of logic (which requires no definitions of, or particular knowledge of, things which exist in the external world to be known).

Being able to "explain what something is supposed to mean" is totally irrelevant to what may, or may not, exist.

As Frank says, whatever X means, the logical proposition still holds "true." It doesn't in any way depend on "meaning."
Herald
 
  0  
Sun 10 May, 2015 10:35 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
What Frank is telling you is correct, as a strict matter of logic
     It is nothing of the kind. The conception of no-God in the event when God is undefined is much wider than you can possibly imagine.
     Example: My laptop is no-God ... and your keyboard is no-God, but when one speaks about no-God he hardly imagines laptops and keyboards.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 10 May, 2015 10:48 am
@Herald,
Quote:
It is nothing of the kind


You simply repeat, and continue to insist on the correctness of, the same fundamental mistake, Herald.

You confuse logic with "linguistic truth" or something along that nature.

You confuse epistemology with ontology.

You confuse the a priori with the a posteriori.

The laws of logic do NOT depend on meaning.

If you are trying to deny the validity of logic itself, you are not even doing that properly.

Herald
 
  -1  
Sun 10 May, 2015 09:20 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
You simply repeat, and continue to insist on the correctness of, the same fundamental mistake
     What mistake - that if you don't define something (no matter whether God or whatever), the negation of that undefined variable could actually be the Universal statement for there are no constraints on the concept - God and non-God can be virtually everything. Where is 'the fundamental mistake' and where is 'the same' with all that?
layman wrote:
You confuse logic with "linguistic truth" or something along that nature.
     I don't know what you call logic (and I don't want to know), but the standard understanding of the present day logic is the predicate logic of first and second order and the formal math models and inference engines based on that - everything else is some frivulous interpretation of the words.
layman wrote:
The laws of logic do NOT depend on meaning.
     What about the content-based methods? Besides that here the logic works properly - it is the interpretations that are distorted to level misinterpretations as a result of the lack of formal definitions ... and this has nothing to do with any linguistics.
layman wrote:
If you are trying to deny the validity of logic itself
     Where and how ... I am 'trying to deny the validity of logic itself'? The validity of logic can be denied only by the Big Bang 'theory' and by nobody and/or nothing else. Only the Big Bang is able to stand above the consistency of the math models and above the things with the physical interpretation of that models.
     If you are curious to know the Big Bang 'theory' is light years ahead with the material and we will hardly ever be able to catch up with it.
layman
 
  -2  
Sun 10 May, 2015 10:05 pm
@Herald,
Quote:
In classical logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (or the law of contradiction (PM) or the principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) is the second of the three classic laws of thought. It states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e.g. the two propositions "A is B" and "A is not B" are mutually exclusive. The principle was stated as a theorem of propositional logic by Russell and Whitehead in Principia Mathematica

As is true of all axioms of logic, the law of non-contradiction is alleged to be neither verifiable nor falsifiable, on the grounds that any proof or disproof must use the law itself prior to reaching the conclusion. In other words, in order to verify or falsify the laws of logic one must resort to logic as a weapon, an act which would essentially be self-defeating.

Since the early 20th century, certain logicians have proposed logics that deny the validity of the law. Collectively, these logics are known as "paraconsistent" or "inconsistency-tolerant" logics. Graham Priest advances the strongest thesis of this sort, which he calls "dialetheism". Dialetheism is the view that some statements can be both true and false simultaneously. More precisely, it is the belief that there can be a true statement whose negation is also true. Dialetheism is not a system of formal logic; instead, it is a thesis about truth that influences the construction of a formal logic.

[An] objection that is that "negation" in paraconsistent logic is not really negation; it is merely a subcontrary-forming operator. Some, such as David Lewis, have objected to paraconsistent logic on the ground that it is simply impossible for a statement and its negation to be jointly true.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction#Modern_logics


According to dialetheists, there are some truths that can only be expressed in contradiction. They claim, for example, that the statement "There are no absolutes" is an absolute. According to dialetheists, these statements are not derived from logic (which they say is false), but are instead descriptions of experience.

If you want to claim that "logic is false," then of course there are no "logical" restraints of any kind that can be placed on any claim.

That is just how some people like it. That way, nothing they say can be subjected to the objection that it contradicts logic. If logic is false, who cares? They license to make the most self-contradictory claims 24/7.

Herald
 
  -2  
Sun 10 May, 2015 10:11 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
In classical logic, the law of non-contradiction (LNC) (or the law of contradiction (PM) or the principle of non-contradiction (PNC), or the principle of contradiction) is the second of the three classic laws of thought. It states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time, e.g. the two propositions "A is B" and "A is not B" are mutually exclusive. The principle was stated as a theorem of propositional logic by Russell and Whitehead in Principia Mathematica

As is true of all axioms of logic, the law of non-contradiction is alleged to be neither verifiable nor falsifiable, on the grounds that any proof or disproof must use the law itself prior to reaching the conclusion. In other words, in order to verify or falsify the laws of logic one must resort to logic as a weapon, an act which would essentially be self-defeating.
Since the early 20th century, certain logicians have proposed logics that deny the validity of the law. Collectively, these logics are known as "paraconsistent" or "inconsistency-tolerant" logics.
     Yes, but this is talk is too general. I was asking how do you apply the law for conservation of energy at time zero of the Big Bang 'theory', and the state of Infinite Temperature (without heat carrier), and the LNC simultaneously to the formal model of that theory?
     Temperature is the velocity of the particles - how can you have Infinite Temperature without infinite velocity and without the particles at all ... and how can you apply the LNC to that? I told you that the Big Bang 'theory' is light years ahead with the material - you should believe me.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 10 May, 2015 10:37 pm
@Herald,
Quote:
I was asking how do you apply the law for conservation of energy at time zero of the Big Bang 'theory', and the state of Infinite Temperature (without heat carrier), and the LNC simultaneously to the formal model of that theory?


You can ask whatever you want. The subject was whether two mutually exclusive claims can BOTH be true. The answer is "no," not if you accept logic. Your question does not even address that topic.

As far as many modern "theories of physics" go, many strike me as inherently illogical.

Btw: I hit "reply" on that last post prematurely, but have since finished it. So now there is more commentary there, if you care to understand what I was saying about logic and the PNC.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 10 May, 2015 10:43 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Dialetheism is not a system of formal logic; instead, it is a thesis about truth that influences the construction of a formal logic


A thesis about truth is a claim whose home philosophically lies in the metaphysical category of ontology, not logic.

Questions of how things can be "known" are in the realm of epistemology, and are questions which are independent of ontology (although some make the stupid-ass, solipsistic claim that only what can be known can "exist," I suppose).
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  4  
Mon 11 May, 2015 01:02 am
Thought for the day

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/23/5a/75/235a752d86625dbd26af4cc2e92274ef.jpg
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  3  
Mon 11 May, 2015 01:44 am
As "an atheist" I've had this thread on "voted down" since the earliest pages, because contrary to futile disputes about "existence" or "evidence", my atheism (like Wilso) is based on not caring about/having no use for a "God concept" unless its acceptance by others impinges on my life. The futility arises from circularity because nobody can adequately define "existence" without resorting to an absolutist axiom which itself constitutes an " ultimate belief".

In that sense "atheism" is merely a social posture antithetical to a parochial consensus. Its psychological aspects constitute awareness of internal dialogue we occasionally have with ourselves which reflect hypothetical conversations with nebulous "believers". Like any facet of personality, it is not a permanent state but tends to be evoked by social situations involving "believers", ranging from obligations to attend funerals, or the "education" (indoctrination ?) of children. The fact that so many human beings appear to need religion, implies that the conflict has no hope of resolution.



Thomas
 
  3  
Mon 11 May, 2015 02:38 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
The futility arises from circularity because nobody can adequately define "existence" without resorting to an absolutist axiom which itself constitutes an " ultimate belief".

How is it circular to believe that some things exist, but not that deities are among them? I have no idea what you mean by your term "ultimate believe". But whatever it is, there is no contradiction between subscribing to the "ultimate belief" in the existence of some things, but to the particular "ultimate belief" in world-creating, virgin-impregnating, dinner-blessing, prayer-answering, obsessing-about-our-sex-lives supernatural entities.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Mon 11 May, 2015 03:06 am
For me, something apparently exists. I do not know about you...any of you...nor do I know (if you exist) whether or not something apparently exists for you or not.

I do not know if what exists includes gods.

All this nonsense that supposed theists and atheists out there in what I think exists...are either certain or reasonably sure there is a GOD...or that there are no gods...

...is some kind of joke. The arguments supposedly intelligent people make to pretend their guesses about this question make sense...are JOKES.

We do not know if anything exists...but if something does exist...we certainly do not know enough about it to limit it by saying "At least one GOD exists...or it is more likely one does than doesn't" or "no gods exist...or it is more likely that none exist than that at least one does."

Why are intelligent people like you rationalizing blind guesses about this kind of stuff...rather than simply acknowledging the obvious?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 11 May, 2015 04:03 am
@Thomas,
It does not matter what you postulate as "existing" if you think "existence" is independent of the contextual requirements of observers. That is a notion defined as "naive realism". The argument will be circular since "independence" by definition is an absolutist starting axiom. An alternative is the pragmatists view that assertions of "what is the case" are attempts to fulfill intellectual and social needs of communicators in order to engage in potential joint action (including exchange of views). i.e All assertions of thinghood are predicated on contextual human needs whether they are about "rocks" or "gods". Language (acquired socially) does not describe "reality", it evokes "a shared communicative scenario" and that evocation is transient. Ensuing arguments are de facto merely attempts to sway contextual consensus about "what axioms work" rather than about the "independence" of axioms (which even a loose interpretation of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem would suggest is indeed futile).
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Mon 11 May, 2015 04:07 am
@fresco,
Fresco...get over yourself.

And finally get over your assumption that humans, of necessity, are the determinant of REALITY.

They may be...but even you should be intelligent enough to recognize that they may not be!

Thomas
 
  3  
Mon 11 May, 2015 06:50 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
It does not matter what you postulate as "existing" if you think "existence" is independent of the contextual requirements of observers. That is a notion defined as "naive realism".

Very well. Then by your definition, I'm a naive realist. I will certainly get over this piece of news, and I hope you will, too.

fresco wrote:
The argument will be circular since "independence" by definition is an absolutist starting axiom.

Even assuming that this is true, I don't see how it proves circular reasoning. Show me the circle, please.
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 11 May, 2015 08:37 am
@Thomas,
Okay. The argument put forward by most atheists is that "the (independent) existence of a deity" cannot be proved. But "independent existence" of anything at all is unprovable because it requires at least one observer to assign the nature of thinghood within a social context, in order to denote what might constitute "evidence". The involvement of "an observer" (thinger) is antithetical to "independence".



layman
 
  0  
Mon 11 May, 2015 09:33 am
@fresco,
Quote:
But "independent existence" of anything at all is unprovable because it requires at least one observer...The involvement of "an observer" (thinger) is antithetical to "independence".


In other words, as Berkeley put it: "To be is to be perceived." Utter and abject solipsism, sho nuff.

A tree "exists" if, AND ONLY IF, it is "observed" by a subject. As soon as the observer turns his head and looks in a different direction, the tree no longer "exists." If he looks back again to the same direction and if, then, he sees a tree (which he might not, ya know) then now, again the tree exists (but only for so long as it is being looked at).

There is no tree, no "thing." There is ONLY a perception of it. This is Fresky's "non-dualim." It a strict monism. There is no duality of subject and object, because ONLY subjects really exist.

Nevermind that this metaphysical "non-dualism" is a an absolute ontological claim. It is, somehow, "known" to be true by "subject" who "cannot prove anything at all." Who, I wonder, is the observer who gives existence to the observer who then, in turn, deprives all material objects of any "real" or "true" existence?

Good thing Berkeley had an answer for that, too. It's GOD, doncha know?



layman
 
  0  
Mon 11 May, 2015 10:11 am
@layman,
Quote:
Who, I wonder, is the observer who gives existence to the observer who then, in turn, deprives all material objects of any "real" or "true" existence?

Good thing Berkeley had an answer for that, too. It's GOD, doncha know?


I didn't say it, but it should be obvious. God don't take no vacations! He sees everything, at ALL times. That way, the subject doesn't ever have to worry about ceasing to exist because no one is observing him (without which, he would just up and disappear, ya know?).

But, ****, now we seem to have come back to "dualism." There is only one "subject," and that's god. You then are an "object" (of perception by God). But "objects" don't exist, only subjects, I thought.

Seems a little strange, but, in case you didn't know, with God, ANYTHING is possible.

0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Mon 11 May, 2015 10:32 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
And finally get over your assumption that humans, of necessity, are the determinant of REALITY.

They may be...but even you should be intelligent enough to recognize that they may not be!


I think he knows that, Frank. Mere "humans" know nothing, and determine nothing. But Fresky, well, he aint really human, see? He's a god, in possession of absolute truth about the limits of OTHER, substandard humans.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 11 May, 2015 10:43 am
Yes. Layman has (surprisingly) understood Berkeley's need to evoke "God" as "an ultimate observer" in order to rationalize dualism. But non-dualistically all we need to say is that "observer and observed" are co-extensive and co-existent. We don't need play games about "things disappearing while our backs are turned". All we need to say is "reality is about what instantaneously matters". There are millions of potential "things" behind my back as I type this, but perception is active not passive, so I ( social agent) might thing a missing pen on the floor, but not a particular strand of carpet. As Heidegger suggested, "things" pop in and out of "existence" all the time because existence involves "caring" and caring is transient. For theists, "God" is of course the eternal and perpetual "carer"....the guardian of all "existence".


 

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