Atheism

@edgarblythe,

I am very sorry Edgar, I shouldn't not have joked when such a serious matter was at hand. It is just a way of coping for me. When I am on uneven ground I often make jokes in an attempt to collect thoughts and ease my uncomfortableness. I in no way think any any of you friends that encounter here on A2K and converse with on regular basis shove your religious, or none religious beliefs into anyone, let alone my face on a daily or even hardly every basis.

@Thomas

Quote:

But even if you don't believe in god, you can still believe in things like karma and reincarnation. And that's what Buddhists do.

I will admit that I do not not study much of other religious. This is a fault. I should be more experienced in such matters if i ever tend to enter a debate about it. Though one thing I have found on here is that many people will take the time to help explain as the conversation goes along. That iso ne of the reasons why I stick around.

As for what I quoted. Religion is a multi-layered subject. Many people have a wide range of thoughts, ideas, equations, theories and what have you about religion. One of my basic thoughts about what makes a religion a religion is the belief in something supernatural, mostly pertaining to the afterlife. Hence why I consider Buddhism a religion, because they believe in reincarnation. They believe your life is not over when you die but you go on to another life, be it a bugs life or another persons life, but life goes on after death. I don't think you have to believe in a deity to be religious at all. I think it is the belief that there is something more after death that makes a person religious.

1 Reply

Seed, hope you don't mind my asking, but you seem to be the token religious person here at the moment. Do you have a feeling that atheists are amoral - that is, without morals? Aside from the part about those who shove your face in it, do you think people without religion are bad for the world?

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Lord I gave a link to the text he produce and Jesus was not picture as raising from dead, bringing others back from the dead, being the son of god from a virgin birth and on and on and on. All such claims he edit out.

You can be an atheist and if you wish to still be of the opinion that a man by the name of Jesus existed and have some worthwhile teachings. I happen not to be of that mind set but Jefferson seem to had been.

But feel free to go to the Jefferson bible and find something of a supernatural nature still contain in it.

Side note Jefferson bible is not very long as once you do removed the silliness out there is not must remaining.

And to end up your silliness the following was not written by a Christian or a believer in Jesus being a god or 1/3 of a god, but it was written by Jefferson.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

0 Replies

@littlek,

I don't think religion makes the person. I don't believe that you have to believe in God or god to have a strong belief structure or have morals. The way you act in live, the way you were raised in life, to me, is what helps create and shape those beliefs and morals.

On the other hand, being religious gives an outline of what is considered good and bad morals. Which I think ironically anyone could figure out on their own, and I laugh when my more zealous religious friends find that someone who doesn't believe in their God see has those good qualities that apparently they think you can only learn by reading and believing.

You are a good person because of what you do, not who you or who you do not believe in.

_____________________________________________________
And I don't mind being the other side of the blade of grass so to speak. I am not completely and utterly knowledgeable but I give honest answers.

2 Replies

@Seed,

Right. I believe that relgions came up with very similar sets of morals because they make sense. If they make sense, one can figure them out without religion. Of course, I got my morals from my parents who were religious into young adulthood. Perhaps gotten my morals (some of which are ridiculously 'pious', when I think about them) second hand from religious tenets.

I am reading a book about early explorers of the South Seas. There are quite a lot of descriptions about the lifestyles of islanders they found there (specifically in Haiti). Of course the explorers were christian, being from Europe, and the islanders were not. The islanders, as described by a rich botanist named Banks, were living a lifestyle that I would find troubling were they living next door to me. But on the island they all lived the same way and the way they lived was unversaly accepted so far as I can tell from reading his account. So, the tenets of what moral is, even to me, is somewhat hazy. But, that's ok with me. It makes me think. I like to think. I feel like it's a "if a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" issue. If infanticide (not abortion, infanticide) and stealing a accepted by all on the island, is it immoral? Certainly those are things I wouldn't do. But, can I get all judgmental of those Tahitians? Not really.

2 Replies

@Seed,

On the other hand, being religious gives an outline of what is considered good and bad morals

Such as killing homosexuals, children that talk back to parents, anyone who work of Sundays and on and on.

Anyone who follows the word of god as express in the Old Testament would be lock up in either a mental health institution or a prison in short order.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

But the Old Testament is not relevant to today's world. That is why their is the New Testament. One is old (see: out dated) one is New (see: updated).

I never said that being religious meant being christian. You implied that.

1 Reply

@littlek,

littlek wrote:

Right. I believe that relgions came up with very similar sets of morals because they make sense. If they make sense, one can figure them out without religion. Of course, I got my morals from my parents who were religious into young adulthood. Perhaps gotten my morals (some of which are ridiculously 'pious', when I think about them) second hand from religious tenets.

I am reading a book about early explorers of the South Seas. There are quite a lot of descriptions about the lifestyles of islanders they found there (specifically in Haiti). Of course the explorers were christian, being from Europe, and the islanders were not. The islanders, as described by a rich botanist named Banks, were living a lifestyle that I would find troubling were they living next door to me. But on the island they all lived the same way and the way they lived was unversaly accepted so far as I can tell from reading his account. So, the tenets of what moral is, even to me, is somewhat hazy. But, that's ok with me. It makes me think. I like to think. I feel like it's a "if a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" issue. If infanticide (not abortion, infanticide) and stealing a accepted by all on the island, is it immoral? Certainly those are things I wouldn't do. But, can I get all judgmental of those Tahitians? Not really.

I believe the status quo has a lot to say about what is morally right and wrong. In the 1600's and 1700's it was morally fine to call a black person a nigger and to whip them. It was the status quo. In today's culture it is anything but the same. morals change with time just as much as they change with the person.

0 Replies

@littlek,

littlek wrote:

Some results:
This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society...

Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%

Numbers like this might be a bit misleading exactly because Atheists represent such a small portion of the population.

If every other religion is likely to look down on Atheists because they are different, but each religion is also likely to look favorably on itself, then the statistics simply represent the fact that atheists are universally outside of other religions and also don't have a large enough component of individuals to offset the other groups.

1 Reply

@littlek,

littlek wrote:

I feel like it's a "if a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" issue. If infanticide (not abortion, infanticide) and stealing a accepted by all on the island, is it immoral? Certainly those are things I wouldn't do. But, can I get all judgmental of those Tahitians? Not really.

On the third hand -- we Beteigeuzeans have three hands -- how do you feel about non-conformists in the ante-bellum South opposing slavery? Are you prepared to say they were morally wrong? Or at least no more right than the pro-Slavery majority in their society?

0 Replies

@littlek,

littlek wrote:

I know there are other threads about atheism, but they tend to be focused somewhat specifically to some argument or subtopic. I'd like this thread to be open for constructive conversation, sharing of ideas and resources, etc.

One big issue that some friends and I feel is weird is that religious people seem to feel that we are persecuting them. I can't see how that could be given that we represent such a small minority of any population. If anything, it is we who are persecuted.

Apparently, Atheism will be the last bastion of "don't ask, don't tell". Smile

0 Replies

Thomas, no, I wouldn't say they were morally wrong.

Ros - I hope not! That's a whole other issue - don't get me started!

2 Replies

@littlek,

littlek wrote:

Ros - I hope not! That's a whole other issue - don't get me started!

I meant that the basic behavior pattern of Atheists seems to be "don't ask, don't tell". People don't ask us about our Atheism and we generally don't bring is up.

1 Reply

@littlek,

I was going to ask you about a subset of it, though. Did you compare notes with your gay brother about the whole not-feeling-free-to-speak-up thing? There do seem to be parallels between atheists and gays here.

0 Replies

I understood that Ros, I was tempted to get off track about the current (or more obvious) manifestation of the concept.

Thomas, I haven't spoken to my brother about it. Even within my family we don't really talk about religion or lack of it. I can't say whether my parents believe in god or not (I suspect they don't, but....). I imagine none of my siblings believe in god, but again, I don't know for sure because I haven't asked them.

But, yes, it is a similar thing - and Don't ask, Don't tell" does seem to apply to both. Though I don't think any atheist in America has recently been beaten to death for not believing.

1 Reply

@Seed,

Seed wrote:

I am very sorry Edgar, I shouldn't not have joked when such a serious matter was at hand. It is just a way of coping for me. When I am on uneven ground I often make jokes in an attempt to collect thoughts and ease my uncomfortableness. I in no way think any any of you friends that encounter here on A2K and converse with on regular basis shove your religious, or none religious beliefs into anyone, let alone my face on a daily or even hardly every basis.

@Thomas

Quote:
But even if you don't believe in god, you can still believe in things like karma and reincarnation. And that's what Buddhists do.

I will admit that I do not not study much of other religious. This is a fault. I should be more experienced in such matters if i ever tend to enter a debate about it. Though one thing I have found on here is that many people will take the time to help explain as the conversation goes along. That iso ne of the reasons why I stick around.

As for what I quoted. Religion is a multi-layered subject. Many people have a wide range of thoughts, ideas, equations, theories and what have you about religion. One of my basic thoughts about what makes a religion a religion is the belief in something supernatural, mostly pertaining to the afterlife. Hence why I consider Buddhism a religion, because they believe in reincarnation. They believe your life is not over when you die but you go on to another life, be it a bugs life or another persons life, but life goes on after death. I don't think you have to believe in a deity to be religious at all. I think it is the belief that there is something more after death that makes a person religious.

Although Budhists believe in reincarnatiuon, metempsychosis is not the goal. When a Buddhist achieves nirvana, the chain of rebirths is broken. I am no expert. I don't recall which sects, if any, believe in afterlife, once that is achieved.

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/beliefs/afterlife.htm Nirvana is the state of final liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth. It is also therefore the end of suffering. The literal meaning of the word is "to extinguish," in the way that a fire goes out when it runs out of fuel. In the Surangama, the Buddha describes Nirvana as the place in which

it is recognized that there is nothing but what is seen of the mind itself; where, recognizing the nature of the self-mind, one no longer cherishes the dualisms of discrimination; where there is no more thirst nor grasping; where there is no more attachment to external things.
But all these descriptions only tell us what is not Nirvana. What is it like? Is it like heaven, or is it non-existence? The answer is not clear, due in large part to the Buddha's aversion to metaphysics and speculation. When he was asked such questions, he merely replied that it was "incomprehensible, indescribable, inconceivable, unutterable."

0 Replies

@littlek,

littlek wrote:

Though I don't think any atheist in America has recently been beaten to death for not believing.

Your word to Murphy's ear. A Google search for "murdered for being an atheist" yielded this 2004 case described on About.com.

About.com wrote:

On October 18, 2004, Larry Hooper was murdered by his friend Arthur Shelton Why? According to Shelton, a devout Christian and an Eagle Scout, Hooper was an atheist and thus the "devil himself." Shelton seems to have believed that, as a Christian and follower of God, he had an obligation to kill Larry Hooper and remove his evil, atheistic influence from this planet.

Admittedly the source is obscure, and no independent news organization has confirmed the report. So we can at least hope it didn't happen.

0 Replies

@Seed,

Quote:

But the Old Testament is not relevant to today's world. That is why their is the New Testament. One is old (see: out dated) one is New (see: updated).

OH and those Sundays shows of TV with the nice man facing tens of thousands of people reading from the old testament mean that no one give full faith and credit to the old testament as well as the new testament?

0 Replies

Here's a lovely example of someone dissing atheism without getting it at all. This from the comments below a beautiful story that professes that blue whales are recovering from dangerously low numbers.

Quote:

paul best (shamanguy) wrote:
japan just does not GET IT,,atheist nation that it is,,killing/MURDERING whales...now look at TM...going BK next 5 yrs.
Saturday, February 06, 2010 10:44:23 PM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123420217#commentBlock

1 Reply

@littlek,

segue, I found this interesting a few days ago here in Albaturkey. headline reads
"MAN OF GOD FOUND MURDERED"
the story goes on to say a catholic priest had been murdered yada yada yada. So what I'm saying is the headline itself proclaims that a catholic priest is a MAN OF GOD, and i'm thinking the theology of catholism or really any christian church is that every man is a MAN OF GOD, si I guess a priest is more "godlike" than everyone else and the ensuing logic leads us (me anyway" to the understanding that their is a hierarchy of men in their nearness to god which puts atheists in the celler (subhuman?)
anyway, just my thought reaction to the headline.

3 Replies

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know