@layman,
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Knowledge in and of itself is a subset of belief....Of course you have some on either side who claim to be Gnostic..to them knowing that god exist or knowing that god doesn’t exist.
Quote:Those who claim to "know" that god doesn't exist, cannot, then, by your definition be "atheist." (You said: "Theism has to do with belief and (A) thesis is without belief.") They have a belief, not a lack of belief. You can't claim to "know" something without claiming to "believe" it.
You are still confusing belief with knowing.
belief and knowing are separate issues... but not mutual exclusive, but they are not the same.
If I say I know that god doesn't exist that for me would only strengthens my position and perception that I am with out belief of a god(s)
I can say I believe something and not be able to prove it's existence.
I cannot believe something because it might not make sense to me but that doesn't mean I can Prove it one way or the other.
I can stay that I believe something and claim that I know it exist for what ever reasons good or bad.
I can say I don't believe something and that I know it doesn't exist for what ever reason good or bad.
that is all that theism and atheism statements are. They are statement about and concerning belief not knowledge or truth for that matter.
Gnosticism and Agnosticism is about knowledge or lack there of and not about truth in and of itself
We have beliefs and they are usually strengthen or diminished when we gain some knowledge.
Quote:Likewise, someone "knowing that god doesn’t exist," as you put it, cannot be an agnostic. He doesn't claim a lack of knowledge. So, by your definition, he can be neither atheistic nor agnostic.
Agnostic means without knowledge, that is the definition that I am using.
if a person claims that he knows he is a Gnostic. If I say I am an atheist Gnostic. I am saying not only am I without belief but I also know (god)s don't exist. If I say that I am an Atheist Agnostic I am only stating that I am without belief, but I don't know if there is god or not which leaves open the possibility that if there is evidence of (god)s existence I would be most inclined to believe.
Quote:Does that make him a "theist?" You see the problem with the distinctions you're trying to make here? They cannot be consistently applied.
The only qualification to be a Theist is to be with belief nothing else. The only qualification to be an atheist is to be without belief nothing else.
Quote:You say "Knowledge in and of itself is a subset of belief." So, you can believe without knowing, but you can't know without believing. But, that aside, "agnostic," not withstanding it literal meaning, has traditionally been associated with "doubters," i.e., those who lack a belief because they don't know. So the knowledge/belief distinction merges and the distinction is not applicable to those cases.
Again, I was talking about modern day atheism, to help develop a dialogue today. So for this conversation the above is moot. The conversation here for now isn't about determining truth it is about what are the rules by which we choose to play by. First we must define the terms before we can engage in constructive dialogue.
It's like asking someone do they believe in god and proceeding without establishing what do you mean by god? How are you defining god?
Quote:But, You say "Knowledge in and of itself is a subset of belief." So, you can believe without knowing, but you can't know without believing.
Yes this is not conversely true. So what of it? I don't understand your purpose here? belief is not a subset of knowledge.
So if I could prove that a god(s) exist then I would be a Gnostic Theist.
This statement doesn't go beyond his scope.