edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 09:47 am
You take shots and then resent getting a few in return? This thread was meant for atheists to interact with atheists. You have gotten a free pass from some of us, undeservedly so. When we requested non atheists to back off they doubled down with a vengeance. Thomas or one of us called me an enabler back then. I guess that is so. I am through with non atheists on this thread, in every respect.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:04 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

You take shots and then resent getting a few in return?


I am not taking shots at you, Edgar. I like you and do not disrespect you.

But if you want to continue to take shots at me...do so. I do not "resent" them...I wonder why they are coming.



Quote:
This thread was meant for atheists to interact with atheists.


So what? How does one simply exclude others from participation in a thread?


Quote:
You have gotten a free pass from some of us, undeservedly so. When we requested non atheists to back off they doubled down with a vengeance. Thomas or one of us called me an enabler back then. I guess that is so.


If you atheists think you can just exclude comments from non-atheists in a thread here in A2K...good luck. It is not going to work...although I personally respected the efforts to keep it only for atheists for a long while. But I continued to read the thread...and there were shots taken at non-atheists. And that requires that non-atheists get involved. You people do not get a free pass either. If you truly wanted to keep it just for atheists...none of you should ever have responded to ANY non-atheists. But that was not the case at all.

And quite honestly, the stuff meant just for atheist to atheist was some of the most boring crap ever presented on A2K.


Quote:
I am through with non atheists on this thread, in every respect.


That is your third notification today of quitting here, Edgar.

What are the chances???
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 11:38 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I see atheism as a positive belief in the absence of gods and other forms of the 'irrational' or 'supernatural' in this world. To me it's not an absence of belief. But even if it is only an absence of beliefs for you and many others, that does not preclude collective action on a very close or related social agenda, such as rationalism or anti-religion. There are many 'anti-this or that' movements out there. All it would take is enough people fed up at the influence of religion in social and political life to federate an anti-religious movement. The free masons were on that line of thoughts at some point.


This is from Religious-Tolerance-dot-org (the article onf atheism):

Quote:
Among the general population, the most common meaning of the word "Atheist" describes what many would call "a strong Atheist:" a person who definitely asserts that all the thousands or tens of thousands of god(s), goddess(es), ghosts, demons, Satans, angels, etc. recognized by humans in the present and past do not exist in reality but were all created by humans.

The most common meaning among Atheists themselves refers to a weak, negative, soft, or skeptical Atheist: one who simply lacks a belief in and knowledge of any supernatural entities whatsoever.


It is also my personal, anecdotal experience that the overwhelming majority of atheists i have met are implicit, or so-called weak atheists. That article at Religious Tolerance is constantly revised, and it now refers to a category which is called apathetic atheists. That would be me--i don't give a rat's ass about the question. I do care about organized religion attempting to run the state, and i do resent people categorizing me inaccurately or entirely falsely just in order to prop up their pet theses about atheists. Not quite 12 years ago, one of our members, Portal Star, started a thread in which he asserted that agnostics are morally and intellectually superior to both atheists and theists. As with all self-congratulatory statements of superiority, it relied on simplistic and basically idiotic assertions. In his case, that all theists are those who positively assert that there is a god, and all atheists are those who positively assert that there is no god. His thesis fails if that is not true. Neither he nor any of his agnostic supporters avoided the problem of selective agnosticism--being agnostics who focus only on the question of gods.

This site has abundant evidence of theists who do not positively assert that there is a god, only that they believe that there is. Of course, the reverse is true for atheists--those who do not positively assert that there is no god, only that they don't believe it. Further confusing the issue is the issue of religious adherents who are either implicit or apathetic atheists. Ipsos, a Canadian research organization and Pew Research in the United States have polled people about their religious beliefs (or lack of them) and affiliations for decades. Recently, both organizations have added a question for those who report a religious affiliation--do they believe in god. Interestingly, about 10% of respondents in both countries who report a religious affiliation say that they do not believe in god. Perhaps the women to whom you refer participate in organized religion because of the community it offers. We can't really know if they believe in god, or a virgin birth, etc.
Quehoniaomath
 
  -1  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 12:34 pm
Quote:
There are several confusions about how logic relates to faith, and I’d like to clear those up.

Consider the amazing amount of information floating around in our culture. Books, articles, internet postings, television news, videos, lectures, seminars, political talk, sales pitches, public relations chatter, scientific claims, educational material, and so on. In this arena, there are HUGE numbers of logical errors. As a reporter and educator, I’ve been cataloguing the errors for 25 years.

If children approach this mountain range of information with no understanding of logic, they will accept some ideas and reject other ideas in unpredictable ways—almost on a random basis. They will walk unarmed into the future and have no basis for judgment.

Who in his right mind wants to encourage or condone a situation like this?

That’s why I created the LOGIC AND ANALYSIS course. It provides a very thorough grounding in a tradition that is all about rational thought. The student gains the ability to analyze information from many different fields and find the flaws. The student becomes very skilled at using the superb tools of logic.

On the other hand, there is faith. This is very personal and very profound. Logic doesn’t touch faith. It is a separate subject.

I have found, in fact, that people armed with logic become much clearer about their own faith. Why? Because they aren’t trying to put that faith under the magnifying glass of analysis. They understand that faith and logic are two different worlds.

However, when people try to attack faith with their own version of logic, those who really know logic can respond immediately and lucidly—and fend off those arguments with great ease.

When, many years ago, I studied the great Western philosophers—especially Plato, the father of rational thought—I was struck by how clearly he admitted his own faith.

These days, some scientists are finally coming to grips with these issues. They are climbing down off their high horses and saying there are matters beyond the scope of the physical sciences.

There is no contradiction here.

http://nomorefakenews.com/logiccourseoutline.html

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 01:28 pm
@Setanta,
We all have individual life experiences…and I have no reason to doubt that the vast majority of atheists you know are weak atheists, Setanta.

My experience is very different. I have known dozens of atheists (enough so that I think atheism is much more popular than most suppose)…and outside of the Internet, EVERY atheist I have ever met has been a STRONG ATHEIST…asserting categorically that there are no gods…or a belief that there are no gods.

Either way, however, I think the labelling aspect of this matter is getting in the way of agreement that could lead to a lessening of the influence of religion on our lives…and in the laws that are (or are not) passed for our society.

I have personally given up using the “agnostic” label.

I state my position on this matter thusly:

I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are gods; I do not know if there are no gods; I see no reason to suspect gods cannot exist; I see no reason that suggests gods are needed to explain existence; I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction.


The need for some to identify as an atheist is something each person has to deal with on his/her own. But if the general perception among the non-atheistic population is that atheists are people who believe or assert there are no gods…I see that as a detriment to enlisting the aid of theists who see the danger in having religion influence the laws that determine how society is going to function.

Without their aid...nothing will ever change.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 04:48 pm
@Setanta,
In my country, most churches are empty now, but 50 years back or so, women would attend the Sunday mass while men would take their aperitif at the nearest bar... That's a bit of a caricature of course but not so far off. Men were more likely to be free thinkers than women. Today it's more even I guess. There are many people like you, for whom it just doesn't matter.
Setanta
 
  4  
Sat 20 Sep, 2014 05:56 pm
@Olivier5,
Of course, the women of 50 years ago might have been motivated by tradition and community rather than deep religious conviction. That's why i mentioned the surveys in which 10% of those professing a religious affiliation said they didn't believe in god. For people like that, the value of community is what likely brings back to a church, the doctrine of which they don't believe in.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Sun 21 Sep, 2014 11:51 am
@Setanta,
I wouldn't want to challenge my grandma's religious convictions. For her, François Mitterrand was the devil... That's the other part of the equation in France: 'atheism vs faith' used to correlate somewhat with 'men vs women' but most importantly, it used to correlate quite well with 'left vs right'. The Catholic Church was and remains anti-Marxist of course, and was even anti-republican (royalist) in the 19th century / early 20th. The role played by the Church in the Spanish civil war illustrates their anti-republican position.

All this to say that historically, Atheism in Europe came to the masses through republicanism and socialism. So the gender gap there could also relate to men being more involved in political life and more inclined to 'revolutionary' ideas, and women less politicized and more 'conservative'...

Another angle is public education, which as you know played a big role in France to establish a secular mindset in the nation and fight off the Church's influence. The hypothesis would be that boys were initially (early 20th) more likely to attend school and be exposed to that secular influence than girls.

Just trying to situate the issue in a particular context so as not to be too abstract. I don't know how the issue played out politically in the US.

Quehoniaomath
 
  -1  
Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:54 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
, François Mitterrand was the devil


She wasn't that far off at all!
He was a 33rd degree freemason, and freemasons of the 33rd degree are real
satanist! You can read the works of Albert Pike on this!

So...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 22 Sep, 2014 02:10 am
@Olivier5,
Certainly the position of religion in any society is conditioned by that society's experience of religion and its effects. When i read Pagnol's La Gloire de mon père, i was impressed by his assertion that many teachers in public schools in the late 19th and early 20th century felt they had a duty to combat the influence of the church. I can't speak to the accuracy of the image he presents, but it gave me a lot of food for thought.

The history of religion in the United States is conditioned not just by American history, but by the history of England before the revolution. Just at the time that settlements on the North American continent were growing, England began to slide into the religious quagmire which lead to the civil wars of the 17th century. After the restortion of the Stuart monarchy in 1660, Parliament moved to exclude anyone who was not a member of the Church of England from public office (c.f. the various Test Acts and the Occasional Conformity Act).

People left England for the "new world" during the civil wars, and some people already in North America returned to fight ni the civil wars--although in far fewer numbers than those who fled England. This experience of religious turmoil and the attempted imposition of religious conformity strongly influenced political thinkers in what became the United States. The first amendment to the constitution to be ratified begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . " (that amendment also protects freedom of speech, of the press and the right of assembly).

The states of Massachusetts and Connecticut had religious establishments--you had to pay a church tax to the Congregational Church, whether or not you were a member. Those who weren't members were also often excluded from public office. Even most contemporary Americans won't understand this because of "incorporation." The rights guaranteed to people under the national, federal government have been extended to cover all the states. That was not initially true. So it was taken that the Federal government could not establish religion, but that the states were not bound by that stricture. The congregation of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptist Church wrote to Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to complain of their position as a result of the state's religious establishment. Jefferson's reply has become famous because of his use of the expression "wall of separation between church and state." Of course, this was the typical flannel-mouthed politician--Jefferson had no authority to intervene on behalf of the Danbury Baptists.

Since that time, as the Federal courts and the Supreme Court have "incorporated" constitutional civil rights, applying them to the states as well as the Federal government, the first amendment prohibition on religious establishment has been very much in evidence. It has been successfully used to prohibit prayer in public schools. It has been used to prohibit the teaching of religious creationism in public school science classes. Probably the most important case was Lemon versus Kurtzman, which resulted in the "Lemon test" to determine whether not state legislation constituted an establishment of religion. (In the Lemon case, and an earlier case in the First Circuit, laws in Pennsylvania and Rhode Island respectively which reimbursed private schools [chiefly Catholic schools] for teacher salaries and educational materials were struck down.)

Since the era of the younger George Bush, though, things have changed. Politicians first feared and courted religious conservatives, and subsequently learned that those religious conservatives did not wield anything like the electoral power it had once been thought they commanded. The tide of religious conservative political power rose and fell all within a few years time. This has been complicated by the decision of the Supremes in Greece, New York case. The city council of Greece, New York had begun having a prayer service to open their meetings, and this was challenged in court. The Supremes decided that it was acceptable as long as no one religious confession was favored over another. This has turned the trend of American reaction to religion in public life on it's ear. That decision ignores that the majority of religious confessions in the United States are christian, and that if one gave each minister of a congregation his or her shot at conducting a prayer service, the long-term tenor and effect would be decidedly in favor of christianity. The Supreme Court is the most arbitrary and authoritarian institution in American political life--there is no appeal from their decisions except to amend the constitution. The Greece, New York case is troubling because it appears that the Supremes have ignored or even overturned an existing amendment. Supreme Court justices are appointed for life, so this extremely conservative court will likely last a long time.

The early republican history of the country was decidedly anti-establishment while not necessarily being anti-religious. Andrew Jackson, for example, refused to call a national day of thanksgiving and prayer after a cholera epidemic in the 1830s. This began to change, however, with the first Republican president, Abraham Lincoln. He was not known as a particularly religious man before he was elected president, but he often had god in his mouth afterward. He established the national Thanksgiving holiday, although the religious character of that holiday has faded before the appeal of wretched excess--it is mostly seen now as a day of approved gluttony and televised football. It was also during his administration that "In God We Trust" was added to the coinage.

This is getting tediously long, so i'll just observe that there have been times when frenzies of religious devotion (probably phony on the part of politicians) have waxed, and times when they have waned. The essential religious character of the nation, however, remains largely unchanged. The public issues have been taken to Federal courts, an by and large, the courts have excluded religion from public life.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Mon 22 Sep, 2014 10:10 pm
I just re-found this thread. I'd finally thumbed it down some time ago.

I was just wondering where Thomas was these days, and there you are, Thomas (I looked up your profile to see when you last posted.)

Now I'm probably mildly interested in the thread again, despite giving myself a atheist-reading rest.

Carry on, all.


Adds, since I just read this and the last page, I'll say it'll soon be 50 years since I stopped believing. Also, I agree with Thomas in that I'm not interested in movements in general and less for a movement that revolves around what I don't believe in.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Mon 22 Sep, 2014 11:02 pm
Ah, women. As a woman, I know more non theist women than I know believers in a god, and that has been so for some while now. Some have a some interest in spirituality of one sort of another, an appreciation for it. That is probably my melieu that is telling, but my melieu varied over time. Most recently, my not too long ago business partner, and latest good female friend are non theists. Of olden day pals and a lot of my female family members, they're sort of loosey goosey religious. But mostly we never talk about that, so those oldies may be further out than I know.

Never read Dawkins or Harris, except quotes on a2k. It was Ratzinger I didn't like, that made me realize the entirety of the bullshit back in the 60's, sort of the candle on the cake of doubt.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Mon 22 Sep, 2014 11:55 pm
@ossobuco,
After reading twenty pages back, I see the last few were interesting and the rest the same old interference to the thread purpose, writ large.

Been there, done that.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 05:48 am
@Setanta,
From what you're saying, there is no particular reason why atheism or 'organized atheism' should be male-dominated in the US, right?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 05:52 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
Some have a some interest in spirituality of one sort of another, an appreciation for it

Indeed, things are rarely cut and dry in that are.

My wife is an atheist but she reads her horoscope every morning... :-)
ossobuco
 
  1  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 07:58 am
@Olivier5,
A friend finds the mountains spiritual. I like mountains because they're mountains. We both find much landscape beautiful. Beauty is another whole subject, eh?
0 Replies
 
Herald
 
  0  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 11:54 am
@One Eyed Mind,
One Eyed Mind wrote:
It's certain that these experiences exist
     Actually the word used in the discussions about that is phenomenology, not experience.
One Eyed Mind wrote:
... and it's certain that these experiences are not our own
     How do you distinguish which experience is your own, and which one is phenomenology?
One Eyed Mind wrote:
but the Universe role-playing its evolutionary design through our human bodies
     The Universe comprises various things - it has galaxies, it has black holes - which component if the Unverse is responsible for the ID, according to you.
One Eyed Mind wrote:
... and through time
     Just don't mention Time. It would be a rough mistake. The fans of the Big Bang are thinking that they are the owners of Time ... and know everything about it from the very beginning (whatever that might mean) -
and in your place I would be very careful when using this concept. This is much more dangerous that the Big Bang and the Evolution taken under common denominator. They 'know' that a Cesium atom placed in the vicinity of the Great Pyramids, for example, is tick-tacking with greater frequency (and thus delaying time) ... notwithstanding that they have never presented any verifyable and trustworthy evidences about that ... and test results that are confirming it. Anyway.
One Eyed Mind wrote:
... these experiences of mankind will shape the coming future in a billions years time.
     The phenomenology of the prophets (if exists) will not shape the future - it is shaping the present. Actually you don't know what does 'shaping' here is supposed to mean, do you?
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 02:12 pm
@Herald,
Quote:
They 'know' that a Cesium atom placed in the vicinity of the Great Pyramids, for example, is tick-tacking with greater frequency (and thus delaying time
Ive heard that the Great Pyramid was originally used to manufacture Plutonium by a much more advanced ancient civilization, but the Cesium 137 thing is news.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 02:23 pm
@farmerman,
That's because the Cesium 137 came out of his ass.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 24 Sep, 2014 03:18 pm
@Olivier5,
I suppose . . . organized atheism doesn't seem really to exist in the U.S. Not that there aren't militant atheists, there's enough to make community tellvision and youtube pretty tedious. But i don't think it's the way it is in England, for example. I don't claim to know much about organized atheism there, i jest hear more about it from England.

As i've said before, i think male domination is a product of society's deepest divide and would therefore be found in all endeavors.
0 Replies
 
 

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