msolga
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:22 am
@Eorl,
Thank you, Eorl.
I thought so, too. Smile
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:04 am
@msolga,
I don't think Mr Dawkins would dare give the first half hour of that speech to a room full of port drinking philosophers. I gave it up after half an hour.

Domestic breeding has a purpose. How can he compare it with natural selection which he says has no purpose? Compare a lovingly tended garden with what natural selection would result in in the same area.

Human activity is geared to opposing natural selection. The Opera House itself in unthinkable from his own scientific position. It was created by human intelligence which he has no explanation for.

The movie camera takes a series of stills. The movement we see on screen is an optical illusion. The film and the fossil record are identical in that important respect. Why does he say they are not? That was no explanation for the gaps in the fossil record. It was a sophistry. And I find it hard to believe that he doesn't know it.

I also don't think he would last long being studied by those experts who look for signs of nervous anxiety in video tapes of people.
Eorl
 
  2  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 06:36 am
@spendius,
If only he'd thought of that, he wouldn't have has to bother writing any books. Gosh. I'm impressed that the sum total of all we knew of evolution can be dismissed in a couple sentences. Clearly nobody has taken the time to point these things out to him. Oh well.
Thomas
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 09:29 am
@msolga,
Thanks MsOlga. I hope they'll upload videos of the presentation somewhere. It's an impressive list of speakers!
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 10:48 am
@Eorl,
Quote:
Clearly nobody has taken the time to point these things out to him. Oh well.


Judging from the anxiety signifiers he displayed they have but he's in too deep now to go back. He daren't think of those things. He has gigs to perform and a wife and two ex-wives to support. Then there's his fan base.

Have you anything to say about the points I raised Eorl? That is, after all, what debate is about rather than just blurting snide remarks and inviting us all to dumb down.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:09 pm
Not all professors agree--

Quote:
James S. Spiegel has an uncomfortable thesis to propose.

He contends: Religious skepticism is, at bottom, a moral problem.

A professor of philosophy and religion at Taylor University in Upland, Ind., Spiegel has written a 130-page book, The Making of an Atheist, in response to the New Atheists. But unlike the numerous responses that have emerged from Christian apologists, Spiegel's book focuses on the moral-psychological roots of atheism.

While atheists insist that their foundational reason for rejecting God is the problem of evil or the scientific irrelevance of the supernatural, the Christian philosopher says the argument is "only a ruse" or "a conceptual smoke screen to mask the real issue " personal rebellion."

He admits that it could appear unseemly or offensive to suggest that a person's lack of belief in God is a form of rebellion. But he said in a recent interview with the Evangelical Philosophical Society that he was compelled to write the book because he is convinced that "it is a clear biblical truth."

His goal in writing the book is neither to provoke people nor show that theism is more rational than atheism. Rather, his aim is to direct people to "the real explanation of atheism."

"The rejection of God is a matter of will, not of intellect," he asserts.

"Atheism is not the result of objective assessment of evidence, but of stubborn disobedience; it does not arise from the careful application of reason but from willful rebellion. Atheism is the suppression of truth by wickedness, the cognitive consequence of immorality.

"In short, it is sin that is the mother or unbelief."

God has made His existence plain from creation " from the unimaginable vastness of the universe to the complex micro-universe of individual cells, Spiegel notes. Human consciousness, moral truths, miraculous occurrences and fulfilled biblical prophecies are also evidence of the reality of God.

But atheists reject that, or as Spiegel put it, "miss the divine import of any one of these aspects of God's creation" and to do so is "to flout reason itself."

This suggests that other factors give rise to the denial of God, he notes. In other words, something other than the quest for truth drives the atheist.

Drawing from Scripture, Spiegel says the atheist's problem is rebellion against the plain truth of God, as clearly revealed in nature. The rebellion is prompted by immorality, and immoral behavior or sin corrupts cognition.

The author explained to EPS, "There is a phenomenon that I call 'paradigm-induced blindness,' where a person's false worldview prevents them from seeing truths which would otherwise be obvious. Additionally, a person's sinful indulgences have a way of deadening their natural awareness of God or, as John Calvin calls it, the sensus divinitatis. And the more this innate sense of the divine is squelched, the more resistant a person will be to evidence for God."

Spiegel, who converted to Christianity in 1980, has witnessed the pattern among several of his friends. Their path from Christianity to atheism involved: moral slippage (such as infidelity, resentment or unforgiveness); (**) followed by withdrawal from contact with fellow believers; followed by growing doubts about their faith, accompanied by continued indulgence in the respective sin; and culminating in a conscious rejection of God.

Examining the psychology of atheism, Spiegel cites Paul C. Vitz who revealed a link between atheism and fatherlessness.

"Human beings were made in God's image, and the father-child relationship mirrors that of humans as God's 'offspring,'" Spiegel states. "We unconsciously (and often consciously, depending on one's worldview) conceive of God after the pattern of our earthly father.

"However, when one's earthly father is defective, whether because of death, abandonment, or abuse, this necessarily impacts one's thinking about God."

Some of the atheists whose fathers died include David Hume and Friedrich Nietzsche. Those with abusive or weak fathers include Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire and Sigmund Freud. Among the New Atheists, Daniel Dennett's father died when Dennett was five years old and Christopher Hitchens' father appears to have been very distant. Hitchens had confessed that he doesn't remember "a thing about him."

As for Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, there is very little information available regarding their relationships with their fathers.

"It appears that the psychological fallout from a defective father must be combined with rebellion " a persistent immoral response of some sort, such as resentment, hatred, vanity, unforgiveness, or abject pride. And when that rebellion is deep or protracted enough, atheism results," Spiegel explains.

In essence, "atheists ultimately choose not to believe in God," the author maintains, and "this choice does not occur in a psychological vacuum."

"It is made in response to deep challenges to faith, such as defective fathers and perhaps other emotional or psychological trials," he states. "Nor is the choice made in a moral vacuum. Sin and its consequences also impact the will in significant ways.

"These moral-psychological dynamics make it possible to deny the reality of the divine without any (or much) sense of incoherence in one's worldview."

The Making of an Atheist: How Immorality Leads to Unbelief was released in February.


** Not only infidelity is in the frame. There's divorce, abortion and homosexuality.

Paul C Vitz is also a professor. He wrote Freud's Christian Unconscious which I have read. Twice.

MontereyJack
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 12:20 pm
Spiegel talks about "paradigm-influenced blindness" and maintains atheists manifest it. He's obviously blind to his own "paradigm-influenced blindness", since he obviously takes everything in his own paradigm as absolutely incontrovertible truth. Just for starters, 4/5 of the world population doesn't consider them truths.
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 02:08 pm
@MontereyJack,
How come he's a Prof?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 03:24 pm
@MontereyJack,
I think, Jack, that his idea that there is a psychological motive behind forms of rebellion against established traditions and moral injunctions is common to most societies and more easily expressed and apparent in those that don't punish it.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 04:05 pm
@spendius,
How does Speigel account for his own personal rebellion against almost every god?
Eorl
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 04:20 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Clearly nobody has taken the time to point these things out to him. Oh well.


Judging from the anxiety signifiers he displayed they have but he's in too deep now to go back. He daren't think of those things. He has gigs to perform and a wife and two ex-wives to support. Then there's his fan base.

Have you anything to say about the points I raised Eorl? That is, after all, what debate is about rather than just blurting snide remarks and inviting us all to dumb down.


As I implied, the entire purpose of his new book is to explain exactly how it evolution works, step by step in very simple language and he demonstrates very clearly the fact of evolution. It's pretty simple really.

Sadly, there are still people who refuse to read the book who are finding said book difficult to understand.
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 04:32 pm
@Eorl,
I'm not clear what you mean.

But if it is what I think you mean then I guess he means that rebellion is only satisfying if it is against one's own culture's God. It seems rather pointless against other culture's gods.

He might have gone further. He might have said that rebellion against the established religion when it is not punished is a lot easier and safer than rebelling against the law and might be said to be a soft alternative.

I'm more inclined to think it is sexual in derivation although rebellion against the father (and authority in general), and rejection of them, has a long past.

It is hardly an original idea. I've been mentioning it for years, on and off, on the evolution threads. It's well known.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 04:54 pm
@Eorl,
Eorl wrote:

As I implied, the entire purpose of his new book is to explain exactly how it evolution works, step by step in very simple language and he demonstrates very clearly the fact of evolution. It's pretty simple really.

Sadly, there are still people who refuse to read the book who are finding said book difficult to understand.

I don't think that many understanding people have any more serious difficulty with evolution, either as an observable phenomenon or as a general theory for the differentiation of species, than they do with the laws of mechanics or any other branch of physics or natural science. The argument begins when advocates of this or any other branch of natural science claims exclusive ownership for any theory of the origins of the observable world - a question that science as a whole has not seriously either codified, addressed or attempted to answer. This claiming of exclusive ownership of ground they haven't even begun to occupy involves a leap of faith much greater than those of which some (Dawkins prominently included) accuse others.
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:08 pm
@Thomas,
My pleasure, Thomas.
It is an impressive list, I agree.
I was actually intending on attending a session or 2, but was quite amazed to see that conference was actually sold out! Hot demand for Atheist information in Melbourne, Oz! Wink
Eorl
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:16 pm
@georgeob1,
You're using the "only a theory" argument, dealt with in chapter one. Evolution is a fact. There are no other alternatives being offered. Not one. Evolution is so far beyond doubt that it takes the monumental power of religious brainwashing to even suggest otherwise. It stuns me that they can succeed with so many gullible people.
Eorl
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:19 pm
@msolga,
Well we do have a young earth creationist Fielding holding the balance of power in the Australian senate! Check out last weeks q&a on iView to see Dawkins v Fielding.
msolga
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:30 pm
@Eorl,
Yes, incredible, Eorl. (I will never forgive the ALP senate preference wheeling & dealing which got him into that position (with so few votes!) in the first place, in it's fear of the Greens. Fools. But that's another story ... )

I will check out Q & A.
Thanks, I wasn't aware that debate had actually occurred.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:57 pm
@Eorl,
Eorl wrote:

You're using the "only a theory" argument, dealt with in chapter one. Evolution is a fact. There are no other alternatives being offered. Not one. Evolution is so far beyond doubt that it takes the monumental power of religious brainwashing to even suggest otherwise. It stuns me that they can succeed with so many gullible people.


Are you suggesting that the theoretical development of evolution has gone beyond that of general relativity and quantum mechanics ? Neither of these is settled beyond doubt, question or further development, and I don't believe that evolution is either.

You have missed my essential point. None of these schools of science has seriously addressed the question of the ultimate origin of the observable world.
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 06:03 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
You have missed my essential point. None of these schools of science has seriously addressed the question of the ultimate origin of the observable world.

Your essential point is irrelevant because evolution is not a theory on the ultimate origin of the observable world. Welcome to science.

T
K
O
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 19 Mar, 2010 06:19 pm
@Eorl,
Quote:
As I implied, the entire purpose of his new book is to explain exactly how it evolution works, step by step in very simple language and he demonstrates very clearly the fact of evolution. It's pretty simple really.


We all know it's simple Eorl. That's its attraction. Something simple allowing people to pose as scientific is like feeding syrup to people who can't get fat. It's very popular with simple people who like simple explanations presented in a way that simpletons can understand and be led to believe, on fresco's cognitive sematic fields of Wittgensteinian semantic fields of subjective cognition, that they are smarter than everybody else.

We all know that one doesn't mate a Derby wimnner with a Shetland pony with the objective of producing a wonder horse. We have known a simple thing like that ever since we left simpletonianism behind a few thousand years ago because it was a dead loss.

The only problem is that organising millions in a cohesive unit is not simple and even less so in advanced technological societies.

One climbs stairs step by step. It really is very simple and explaining it is simple too but it can be fancied up I'll admit.

The entire purpose of every word Dawkins ever wrote or spouted was to make money and get attention by catering to a small minority of simpletons.
And to justify serial monogamy but not going as far as Huxley did for fear of upsetting anybody too much.

Quote:
Sadly, there are still people who refuse to read the book who are finding said book difficult to understand.


I tried reading one of his books but the prose was so dire, so witless and so humourless that I gave it up on account of how many interesting, witty and funny books there are in the world and I set a high value on my precious time.
 

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