Atheism

@ossobuco,

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Pleasure in marriage was a mortal sin.

In theory all pleasure is suspect. (Get thee behind me Satan!). It leads inevitably to depravity and decadence and dysfunction. It's addictive and continually requires novelty and excess because yesterday's thrill is boring today.

The Church teaches asceticism, askesis and self-denial. The difficulty is when pleasure derives from unpleasure. Masochism.

If you apply what you see in Lola's place, regarding variations in nutrient, to sexual pleasure, which the libertine does, you get perversions. Usually fantasised for fear of the law but not always. It's a delicate subject.

Communist governments use the word "error" or "enemy of the state" rather than "sin" but they mean the same thing.

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@Frank Apisa,

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. Have you never heard the statement before.

I hadn't.

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Why so many red herrings?

If you persist in declaring every point you disagree with a red herring there is no point in me, or anybody else, engaging you in discussion. You are looking for the comfort of like-minded people.

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Indeed it does, Spendius.

No it doesn't even if you think it does. It's just a variation on the red herring scheme. Marking your own exam paper. Again.

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. I see you have made your election...and sticking with this lesser persona has won.

I don't know what that means.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
. Have you never heard the statement before.

I hadn't.

Quote:
Why so many red herrings?

If you persist in declaring every point you disagree with a red herring there is no point in me, or anybody else, engaging you in discussion. You are looking for the comfort of like-minded people.

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Indeed it does, Spendius.

No it doesn't even if you think it does. It's just a variation on the red herring scheme. Marking your own exam paper. Again.

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. I see you have made your election...and sticking with this lesser persona has won.

I don't know what that means.

I understand that you do not know what it means. If you did...none of those other responses would be there. All that has to do with the lesser persona winning.

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@FBM,

Quote:

I agree that it proves nothing one way or another,

It does prove something FB. That those who made the picture, and those who promoted it, think their potential viewers are a bit simple minded or even still wet behind the ears literally. And it avoids justifying atheism as the way forward.

As I have said, it discredits atheism and as an atheist I object to it.

You have an educational blind spot if you think an atheist can't support religion and a western atheist can't support the Catholic Church. Prematurely ejaculating wisdom. Simple atheism for simple folks. A species of demagoguery at the bus queue level.

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In any case, it does appear that theists are what many atheists and agnostics charge they are...people who are afraid of death. And it appears that many theists are so afraid of death...they assume that ANYONE who seems in near death situations would "break down" and pray to some god for help.

Okay.

I get it.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

it appears that many

I don't get that. They are weasel words.

And our economies are in danger of going bust because the fear of death is so strong and thus exploitable by sinister forces.

Perhaps those it appears to you are so afraid of death, your perception being the foundation of your argument, might pray to God to avoid having only the breaking-down to perform in "death is next" situations rather than only seeming to be "death is next" situations for the purposes of your argument.

Perhaps you might have said something like--

"Theists are so afraid of death* they naturally think that anyone in a "death is next" situation would break down unless they prayed to God as the last possible straw to clutch at."

"Death is next" situations are rarely depicted. Goya horrified the world by doing so. The picture was only envisaging "death is next" situations as a fanciful notion in a "having our photo taken" situation. A real "death is next" situation is banned on TV although we are creeping towards it.

You're just trying to trick up your fearlessness in the face of the Grim Reaper striding into your neck of the woods grinning fiendishly. Sat at your computer with traces of an American breakfast randomly dispersed about your trousers and shirt front with the air-conditioning set to TEMPERATE.

And some atheists, I don't know how many, some, maybe only a few, are looking at you wide-eyed in astonishment and trepidation and possibly pushing their chair slowly backwards without knowing they are doing so as you spring their imagination into when it is their turn.

Have you any objection to people praying to God in "death is next" situations? It has more dignity in my mind that shouting "long live Trotsky" as Stalin's firing squad raised their rifles.

Determinedly and fearlessly not praying to God in "death is not next" situations is utterly ridiculous.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
I agree that it proves nothing one way or another,

It does prove something FB. That those who made the picture, and those who promoted it, think their potential viewers are a bit simple minded or even still wet behind the ears literally.

If you really believe this, then maybe they're right.

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@spendius,

Ok... give the top three reasons for supporting the Catholic Church that couldn't be equalled or bettered by atheism alone or another religion?

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@FBM,

HA, pointing out that assertions aren't empirical evidence is not a defense of theism.

You brought up the issue of empirical evidence to begin with. I've merely responded.

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@InfraBlue,

Whatever. Got any empirical evidence for your chosen deity?

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@igm,

Quote:

Ok... give the top three reasons for supporting the Catholic Church that couldn't be equalled or bettered by atheism alone or another religion?

Not in any particular order--

No alternative on offer. Being "bettered by atheism alone or another
religion" is not an alternative. You need to explain the betterment. An abstract idea is not to be compared to a reality.

Perfection cannot be bettered. That human weakness falls short of perfection cannot discredit the theology. Every institution would fail that test.

The prevention of wholesale depravity. Or at least some inhibition of it.

The artistic inspiration.

The ceremonies.

The sense of humour.

An umpire role between contending states.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
it appears that many

I don't get that. They are weasel words.

For someone like you...I guess they are.

But it appears you are just here to provide comic relief...and you should be complimented for succeeding the way you do.

Quote:

And our economies are in danger of going bust because the fear of death is so strong and thus exploitable by sinister forces.

Perhaps those it appears to you are so afraid of death, your perception being the foundation of your argument, might pray to God to avoid having only the breaking-down to perform in "death is next" situations rather than only seeming to be "death is next" situations for the purposes of your argument.

Perhaps you might have said something like--

"Theists are so afraid of death* they naturally think that anyone in a "death is next" situation would break down unless they prayed to God as the last possible straw to clutch at."

"Death is next" situations are rarely depicted. Goya horrified the world by doing so. The picture was only envisaging "death is next" situations as a fanciful notion in a "having our photo taken" situation. A real "death is next" situation is banned on TV although we are creeping towards it.

You're just trying to trick up your fearlessness in the face of the Grim Reaper striding into your neck of the woods grinning fiendishly. Sat at your computer with traces of an American breakfast randomly dispersed about your trousers and shirt front with the air-conditioning set to TEMPERATE.

And some atheists, I don't know how many, some, maybe only a few, are looking at you wide-eyed in astonishment and trepidation and possibly pushing their chair slowly backwards without knowing they are doing so as you spring their imagination into when it is their turn.

Have you any objection to people praying to God in "death is next" situations? It has more dignity in my mind that shouting "long live Trotsky" as Stalin's firing squad raised their rifles.

Determinedly and fearlessly not praying to God in "death is not next" situations is utterly ridiculous.

I said what I had to say...and I have enjoyed your rambling, red herring filled attempt to mock it. And apparently you got your jollies by going through all that nonsense you bring to most of your posts...so, we are both the better for the experience.

Have a good day, Spendius.

1 Reply

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Whatever. Got any empirical evidence for your chosen deity?

What makes you think I've got a chosen deity?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

it appears that many

Involves an apparition and a number above a handful. What generally follows words like that is not worth listening to.

You are required to show that my post contained any rambling red-herrings rather than simply assert it for want of a proper response.

Your contempt for A2K knows no bounds.

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@spendius,

These can only be your personal reasons and not a case for remaining a Catholic or supporting Catholicism.

You haven't made a case. Historically they have made a difference but that's all in the past...

Make a case for supporting Catholicism that matters to an atheist or admit there isn't one... if you can... is it possible? I don't think so.

1 Reply

@igm,

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These can only be your personal reasons and not a case for remaining a Catholic or supporting Catholicism.

Of course.

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You haven't made a case.

Making a case is all I can do.

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Historically they have made a difference but that's all in the past...

That has been said, and acted upon, a few times before. The assertion proved false. Maybe it will prove true this time. When the Pope makes a move it's usually top of the news.

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Make a case for supporting Catholicism that matters to an atheist or admit there isn't one... if you can... is it possible? I don't think so.

I did do. If it doesn't matter to "an" atheist am I supposed to not make the case?

Why not answer the points I mentioned before declaring they don't make a case?

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

igm wrote:
These can only be your personal reasons and not a case for remaining a Catholic or supporting Catholicism.

Of course.

Why not answer the points I mentioned before declaring they don't make a case?

I have; by saying that you've given 'personal reasons' I have implied that they do not translate into a case for atheists to support Catholicism. Your list is idiosyncratic and as I've said the Catholic Church 'was' important.

Pronouncements by the Pope are media worthy in the same way popular football teams make the news headlines because there is a mass following of the faithful and therefore demands media coverage.

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@InfraBlue,

That was rhetorical.

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@igm,

Where is your list?

On untried alternatives in the west. On artistic inspiration. On ceremonies. On the inhibition of libertinage. Laughing at the ministers. The umpire role.

Where's your beef. Fancy words butter no parsnips.

Explain your "betterment". I'm all ears. I'm in favour of betterment. Absolutely.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Where is your list?

On untried alternatives in the west. On artistic inspiration. On ceremonies. On the inhibition of libertinage. Laughing at the ministers. The umpire role.

Where's your beef. Fancy words butter no parsnips.

Explain your "betterment". I'm all ears. I'm in favour of betterment. Absolutely.

Tibetan Buddhism has all of your list items. A form of Western Tantric Buddhism based on this can have a list that is palatable to Western sensibilities. A thurible is also used to waft incense in an authentic Catholic manner.

I know quite a few former Catholics who are now comfortable in a Western form of Tantric Tibetan Buddhism... ceremonies in Latin/Tibetan same difference in their poetic cadence etc. Paintings on the walls... drapes.. coloured banners, huge statues covered in gold leaf etc.

Ten avoidances, including: harming others, taking what is not offered, sexual misconduct, slander, etc.

No original sin... no notion of guilt either but taking responsibility for one's own actions because negative causes have negative effects. No god who can punish, one punishes oneself because negative actions produce suffering eventually.

1 Reply

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